Freewill and hardened hearts

Maybe if you sounded more like you wanted a legitimate discussion ...

John, you obviously don't belief funk, and are not interested in finding out if you are missing something in life. What is the point of arguing? Either 1) you are right and he is mistaken or 2) he is right and you are totally clueless. You guys can both debate what you can read in books, but John, you have no clue about his relationship with Christ because you deny out-of-hand that it can exist.

That's ridiculous, John. There are a lot of religions, and for the most part they are all unique. If you can't tell them apart, it is because you haven't tried hard enough (I have and I can, and there are lot of other folks who have tried and succeeded). Christianity makes specific claims that no other religion makes (whatever your stance on its specific claims).I have known a number of (at least nominally) religious and/or Christian folks who have also been very intelligent (yes, even other academic scientists) and who find no problem with the idea of the existence of God, and quite a few who see that the Christian God fits intimately with Universe they see. I do know that there is a lot more to the world than what I can see with my eyes -- to say that there is not (as you do -- at least implicitly) seems like hubris (physicists may predict 10 spatial dimensions ... I can "see" 3 and sense a 4th through changes in the 3, but nobody can yet sense, measure, or has any idea what goes on in the other 6 if they exist as predicted)."No offense intended-- sincerely-- but this is typical knee-jerk christian garbage. I grew up christian. It was preached to me like gospel for a decade and maybe a quarter before I started to seriously question it. Even then, the question wasn't "Is there a god?" but "Which God is the right God?" This state of affairs lasted for fifteen years or so before I was forced into the realization that there really isn't a way to distiguish between the various religions. Nor can they all be right. Checkmate."About your formative years, John, nobody "grows up Christian". It sounds like your parents were Christian (at least nominally) and/or you went to church when you were younger. When you got to be old enough to make your own decisions, it sounds like you decided that you didn't need God, and cast off your parents' tutelage.Everybody has to have their own relationship with God, and nobody can do it for you, not even your parents. It is a personal relationship that requires love and obedience on our part and one of the rewards is faith (another is the presence of the Holy Spirit). It also requires doubt (including self-doubt) and diligent introspection -- every Christian questions his or her faith, and nobody who hasn't ever becomes a Christian.My personal realization of my need for Christ came about in my mid 20's, when I realized that I could not save myself, and that I saw no meaning in my life apart from Christ (not money, or success, or women, or anything seemed to mean anything in the context of eternal death). About the only thing that came close was the purpose I got from medicine, but even that was predicated on there being an absolute purpose or greater good that honestly seemed (and seems) tailor-made by Christ, the great physician.John, there is (only) one way to figure it out and find out for yourself. Ask God to help you see him, and ask him to show himself to you, and perhaps more importantly to show you your need for him. Then sincerely look. If you sincerely desire to know him, the Bible says God will make himself known to you. Perhaps he will show himself to you in a physically measureable 'miracle' such as one described in the Bible. Perhaps not; I do not doubt that he will show himself to you if you ask sincerely, however.Think of it this way: It may be that just because you haven't felt his presence doesn't mean that nobody else has. Maybe the Holy Spirit is a real presence and can interact with human beings who acknowledge Christ -- maybe the happenings of Pentecost were real, and the acts of the Apostles, and the works of Christ. Maybe ... and my point is not to give you a chance to say "maybe not" but to get you to agree that "maybe". Maybe you don't know everything, John. Let's hope anyway that you are fallable, because the Universe sure sounds like an awful, bleak, and hopeless place if you are not.

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.There are a lot of things in life that give us joy, and it is good that you take joy in them. But you will find that your children will grow up and will not need you any longer as they once did, your husband will grow old and will not desire you in the same way, and your prosperity may pass. Even your own life will end. You cannot trust or hope in any of these things.Jesus Christ claimed that he is eternal and that he has power over death; if the accounts of the NT are true, he backed up his teaching through numerous miracles, including his own resurrection. This is what the Christian hope is -- freedom from sin and death, and an eternal purpose and treasure with our Creator.

Schraf, I hope a little scripture doesn't come off as preaching. I though I had already answered your question. Nobody becomes a Christian unless they've asked the question, "what if?" Doubts are an important part of being a Christian. Ask any Christian and they will tell you the same. That is the stage I was in before I became a Christian.As far as Christ's claims and the big "if," I don't know how big an "if" this is --> eyewitness accounts, his own personal admission, and congruence with the OT. On the other hand, your big hope is that the NT writers were mistaken (or were liars, since many of their writings do not give editorial conclusions but instead convey stark historical impressions of Christ's day-to-day ministries and miracles). My hope is that they were not; and the basis of my hope is the picture of Christ that I see in the NT. He is so counterintuitive, amazing, and unusual for his time and ours that I can't imagine someone ever thinking him up.You think Christianity is an invention to keep people in denial...of what? Christianity is just a relationship with Christ, but some people associate it with prohibitions...fine. Sex with multiple partners --> venereal disease --> unwanted pregnancy --> social ruin? Excess alcohol --> alcoholism --> social ruin? Pornography --> promiscuity --> objectification of women --> rape and prostitution --> social ruin? These prohibitions are just common sense attitudes to discourage activities by which people destroy themselves and have been adopted by many societies. But so that you can be complete, go ahead and point out the self-destructive things that Christianity ought to promote.How is Christianity elaborate? Paul says he preached Christ crucified. That is it. That is why I can read John 3:16 and get the whole story: "For God so loved the world that he sent his only Son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." That is why the criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus at Calvary only had to ask to be saved and Christ promised him that he would be. That is not complicated or elaborate -- our Creator just wants a relationship with us, wants us back in the family.On your point about how to know the supernatural... that can be a tough one, and I may not be one to ask because I don't go looking for signs a whole lot. But for most Christians, they know the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives and remember when they did not know him. Miracles like in the OT are clearly supernatural -- Moses asking God to part the sea, Elijah asking God to ignite the water-soaked altar, etc. Likewise, NT miracles are pretty amazing, whether done by Jesus or by the Apostles. These things may be happening today; I do not know, although every once in a while I hear a story that you could argue was miraculous. But on the other hand, I do not need to see these things to believe. As the risen Christ tells the doubting Thomas, people in later generations who have seen less than this (holes in his hands and side) will believe.The reason for this is, when a person sits down and thinks about the circumstances of their life, Christ's offer of salvation makes sense -- as God told his people in the OT "Come now, let us reason together; though your sins be as scarlet, they will be made white as snow."Nobody wants to live apart and be separated for eternity from their creator who "knit them together in [their] mother's womb," and who loves them more than any human father could. Just the possibility should be enough to set someone to finding out if it could be true. If you stop and think, "maybe the Gospel is true and Christ is asking *me* to answer him without any dodging or games," then it can becomes harder and harder to stare him in the face and say, "I don't need or want you." This is the catch, not signs or miracles, just personal honesty to a loving father.

Schraf, you can believe anything you want. I just think you have a skewed view of Christianity, one that lies far outside of what the mainstream Christian church over the last 2000 years has believed. Christian doctrine, whatever you may believe, has not changed appreciably in 2000 years. This is one reason why I can read Paul's letters and agree with them.I don't know where you are getting the basis for you assertion of "Hatred of homosexuals, keeping women as chattel, slavery, racism" as Christian values of this or any other time. That is just baseless slander that does more than just border on bigotry.I was thinking about our discussion yesterday as I read my latest American Medical Association news bulletin -- the headline was about one of only two western trained OB-GYN docs in Yemen who was murdered last month by an Islamic terrorist. The article recounted how the physician, who had given up a lucrative practice in the US driven by a "deep Christian faith", had spent 20 years of her life in selfless service. The hospital that she operated in had been built and supported by millions of dollars of Christian donations over the years. This is the face of the Christian church that I know."LOL! Wow, I sure can, considering how many rewrites he's gone through. Jesus is a completely different person in the gospel of John, for example, compared to the other gospels. He does things on different days, and for different reasons, and the notion that he will come back from the death to lead the Israelites to a military victory over their enimies is greatly played down. Instead, the literal physical "kingdom of heaven", which was unambiguously promised to his followers in the early gospels, was turned into a spiritual reward after death."I don't really see how my post concering the character of Christ was humorous. I have studied the Bible a great deal and read a number of differing points of view regarding the Gospels, and I don't find a basis for your assertions. The four Gospels were written by different men, tailored for different audiences Jew/Greek/etc. and for different purposes. Any thorough exegesis of the Gospels, even by secular writers, would highlight this. But even with the differing viewpoints, the character of Christ is consistent. That is why these four Gospels, and not just one Gospel, were placed in the Bible. That should be obvious. There were other Gospels that were not included, presumably because they did not add any relevant information. Remember, space in the Bible is at a premium and the selections you read in its pages were not randomly chosen.As far as the Kingdom of Heaven, it is pretty clear to me that the point of Christ's message of the Kingdom of Heaven was that it was not an earthly kingdom. That is why the Gospels recount how he withdrew when his followers came to make him King by force. This has been the clear interpretation of the Gospel since the early Christian church. That is such a simple, fundamental point of Christian doctrine and the teachings of Christ, it is hard to believe that you would bring that up as an argument.How many rewrites has Jesus gone through? Ancient manuscripts are the basis for today's Gospel. There is no reason to believe that Scripture has been doctored over the centuries, at least not so much that the basic message of Christ has been altered. That is why I can read very old commentaries on Biblical text and make sense of them. This is very similar to the OT, which has been maintained in a pristine state for thousands of years by the fastidious requirements of Judaism. Related books of commentary and rabbic law (Talmud,etc) have been passed down and would be incomprehensible if the original text had been changed significantly.As for aliens, you seem to have a fascination with them. In likening the Christian with the alien-abductee you appear to be completely discounting the Bible. Christianity has a documentary basis (the Bible) that has a number of historically verified details in it, some that have not been verified but have not been disproved, and a number of miraculous claims that, while amazing, cannot be disproved. Some people will say that I overestimate the historical veracity of the Bible, but point to one specific historical detail in the OT or NT that has been completely and utterly disproved. Or to one apparent inconsistency that remains once ignorance of the Gospel or its historical context has been assuaged.[This message has been edited by zipzip, 02-05-2003]