|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Freewill and hardened hearts | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Nah, the criticism is likely to make Christian faith stronger, because they you get to feel persecuted for your beliefs, and get a bit of a martyred feeling. Always good for feeling righteous.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Funny, it was in my early twenties that I began to question everything, not the least my half-hearted religious feelings, and I ultimately realized that all religions were most likely man made inventions. I felt no need to be saved once I didn't follow any religion anymore. I then began to think agnostic thoughts, and only then a great deal of guilt and angst fell away from my life and I began to be truly happy. I was able to find satisfaction and joy in my career, relationships with family and husband, etc. etc., and this coincided perfectly with my "conversion" to agnosticism.
quote: Well, that is a particularly Christian opinion, you know.
quote: The problem with this is, how do we tell the difference, after the fact, between a real divine "sign" and something we just kind of decide is a "sign" because we want it to be or feel that it is? I mean, people can convince themselves that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on with just as much or more conviction and passion as people who say they have gotten "signs" from God. Why is the first group considered crazy or obviously mistaken and the second group considered perfectly normal but simply having an "ordinary" supernatural experience?
quote: Very true. Also, just because lots of people say they have felt God's presence doesn't prove the existence of God. The Heaven's Gate and Jonestown people all thought the same things, too.
quote: I can agree with "maybe", but I cannot agree with "reasonable" or "likely". Are you saying that the universe would be awful, bleak, and hopeless without Christianity and/or God? That's crazy! The universe is incredibly amazing and wonderful place, full of the beautiful, continual cycle of life. BTW, I wonder if you can do the same thing you are asking John to do? Can you say "maybe not"? [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-31-2003]
|
|||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You are right. I can only live my life as if it matters right now. I can only live my life in such a way that future generations remember me fondly and my works serve to benefit people far after I am gone.
quote: That's a pretty big "if", don't you think? Besides, I think that sin and eternal life are Christian inventions to keep people in line and to be a reward for suffering and a life of denial. To me, all this Christian hoping is just a incredibly elaborate way to ease the fear of death and the unknown. The truth is, I don't really know if anything beyond the natural exists or not, and neither do you. Nobody does. So, I'll ask again. Are you willing to do the same thing you have asked John to do? Are you willing to say "maybe not"? and, The problem with this is, how do we tell the difference, after the fact, between a real divine "sign" and something we just kind of decide is a "sign" because we want it to be or feel that it is? I mean, people can convince themselves that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on with just as much or more conviction and passion as people who say they have gotten "signs" from God. Why is the first group considered crazy or obviously mistaken and the second group considered perfectly normal but simply having an "ordinary" supernatural experience? You couldn't really answer the questions, and that's why you started preaching. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-02-2003]
|
|||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It does when you are trying to influence someone who doesn't believe in the Bible.
quote: "What if" isn't the question, though. "Maybe not" was the question.
quote: It's not my hope. It's just that I see no reason to hold this particular collection of highly-edited and frequently translated writings about a semi-nomadic tribe of Jewish warriors up as anything amazing.
quote: LOL! Wow, I sure can, considering how many rewrites he's gone through. Jesus is a completely different person in the gospel of John, for example, compared to the other gospels. He does things on different days, and for different reasons, and the notion that he will come back from the death to lead the Israelites to a military victory over their enimies is greatly played down. Instead, the literal physical "kingdom of heaven", which was unambiguously promised to his followers in the early gospels, was turned into a spiritual reward after death. Oh, and he isn't really that amazing a character. Now some of those Egyptian and Hindu gods; those are some pretty cool gods, and the Buddha is a pretty wonderful, amazing, counterintuitive character as well.
quote: That when you die, nobody knows what happens, if anything.
quote: Hatred of homosexuals, keeping women as chattel, slavery, racism, using war to solve your problems; these are all former widely-held Christian values, too, with a lot of Biblical evidence to support them. Why is this invalid? Why get mad at me because your own religion's history isn't as lily-white as you wish it was? Don't kill the messenger.
quote: The Bible is pretty long. Unless you are trying to tell me that the rest of the Bible is irrelevant beyond that one sentence, then fine, but then why was Mass always a whole hour?
quote: How is this different from people who remember the time before the aliens visited them and that they continue to communicate with them in their dreams, or what have you?
quote: Do you also, then, believe that people have been taken up into alien spaceships? They believe, too, without any evidence. To me, the claims are exactly the same. Zero evidence. Are they the same to you?
quote: It doesn't make sense to me, because one needs to accept an awful lot without any evidence to believe. Also, lots of religions have similar promises of salvation: reaching Nirvana for one. It is a common theme to have that reward be given after death.
quote: One has to believe in a Creator first. Without even a teensy bit of evidence, I have to say "I don't know" and leave it at that.
quote: Anything is possible. Few things that you have claimed are probable.
quote: What if I did just what you ask, yet I had no religious conversion? My guess is that you would say that I didn't try hard enough, or the right way, or something like that. You see, the only "correct" course of events to you is that I believe as you do. There is no other possible outcome that would be valid, correct?
|
|||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Or not believe, as the case may be.
quote: In the book of Timothy, Paul teaches: 2:11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. So you agree with that?
quote: Come on, Zip, the KKK touts itself as a Christian organization, and at one time only a few decades ago had a membership of millions and a GREAT deal of support from all across the Bible Belt in the southern US. I know, I know, you will say they weren't "real" christians, but the point is, most of them probably thought they were, and also thought that what they were doing was justified. There are plenty of Bible-based websites, anh ministries, out there that advocate hatred, or at least condemnation in no uncertain terms, for homosexuals.
quote: ...and that is an amazing story, and I greatly admire this woman and all the people like her, and all the people who's faith moves them to support work like this. The point is, though, that the history of Christianity is not only one of sacrifice and helping people. There is also a history of oppression, racism, misogyny, and quite a lot of bloodshed. Maybe you can ignore all of that, but I can't. You happen to believe in a Christianity of peace and love and acceptance, but that's not the kind of Christianity that was practiced by the Conquistadores when they slaughtered the Aztecs. The point is, without religion, or some other ideology of utter certainty, like Fascism or communism, atrocities like the Crusades, or Intifada, or the 9/11 attacks, lynchings, or the Holocaust, are not possible.
quote: I thought it was amusing that you thought that there was no way Christ could have been made up by anyone.
quote: Presumably?
quote: Why is space at a premium? Would not ALL the words of God need to be read by his followers?
quote: That is not clear at all in the bible! There are several passages in which Jesus very explicitly states that he will return before the people he is speaking to are dead. Timothy 16:28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mark 9:1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. John 12:14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, [Prophecy] Zech.9:9 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. The problem with this is that the prophecy in Zech 9:9 is not of a spiritual leader, but of a earthly king and military leader, as illustrated below, emphasis mine; Zech 9:9Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. This is clearly talking about a military leader who will come and conquer the world and make Israel the leader of that world. I didn't post the whole thing here, but it talks of swords, sling stones, strongholds, arrows, and prisoners.
quote: If you compare all of the Passover/Crucifiction stories in the Gospels, you will see that they are all a little different in their language as time goes on. John, being written the latest, changes the time of crucifiction so Jesus can be framed as the symbolic Lamb of God.
quote: Well, how can you tell, since we don't have any originals?
quote: Um, no. I do have a fascination with the contradictory way religious people often treat alien abduction claims as bunk, but their own supernatural experiences as obviously true, even thou each group speaks with utter conviction and each group has exactly the same amount of evidence.
quote: Well, yes. The Bible is only considered true if you believe in it.
quote: LOL! So what? There are a great many "historically verified details", and a great deal of "unverified claims" in the alien visitation literature that haven't been disproved, either.
quote: Either you have independent verification of events in the bible, or you don't. That several cities and people mentioned in the Bible were real doesn't mean much. Roswell is a real place in New Mexico, after all. I will even say that it is somewhat likely that someone named Jesus lived at that time, was one of many claiming to be a prophet or the son of God, and was and was probably crucified by the Romans. Does that actually make him the actual son of god, just because this mythology rose up around him and managed to be propagated to this day by his followers? Of course not. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-06-2003]
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024