Matthew 27:9: Quoted from Jeremiah?

A little off topic guys.But back to the original. It is very very simple. The audience was jewish that Matthew wrote to and the Jews grouped books together and called the mini grouping by the first single book of the grouping. In this case, the minor prophets, Jeremiah was the first book and any reference contained in any particular book, in this case Zacharia, of the minor prophets it was simply referred to as Jeremiah. It's just a case of familiarizing oneself with Jewish customs of the time.

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Daniel and Isaiah are not in the grouping of the minor prophets and yes it was a custom of the time...that's why I told you so.

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

I knew you would make me back up my statements! I hate it when that happens.I discovered the judaic custom researching bible discrepancies years ago and will look up the other prophets you mentioned. The customs are listed in Haley's Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible 1878 and many others since but I'll find some sources for you. Part of the Jeremiah one was because part of the prophecy is in Jeremiah and part is in Zachariah and Jeremiah was the header for the grouping. But like I said I'll dig up sources for you.

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

There are some good books that explain alledged contradictions and almost all end up being superficial scholarship on the part of the person alleging the contradiction.For example in Acts 22 & 9 of the original KJV (I think chapt 9) both accounts of the conversion of Paul on the road to damascus where one says Paul heard something and the other says he didnt hear. But when one looks it up there are two different greek words used for 'to hear' one means to hear with comprehension and the other means to hear a noise. So it ends up Paul heard something but didnt understand what he heard. The KJV tried not to paraphrase and translated one greek word to one english word where possible and this alleged contradiction arose which was corrected in later translations.Haley's from 1878 is a good starting one but like I said give me some time I'll find the sources for the Jeremiah grouping explanation being judaic custom for you.Especially if you are going to teach intro the Old Testament you should get some materials that thoroughly refute the idea the Old Testament wasn't written until 500 bc. Josh McDowell has some good books on the Subject including "Evidence demands a Verdict Volumn II' where experts are cited ad nauseum. It is a good starting place.Other experts who refute alleged contradictions are R.C. Sproul, Norman Geisler, and others. Hope this helps

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

In Evidence demands a Verdict McDowell merely makes an outline of the topic then cites the experts themselves. Since you were unaware of basic answers to commonly miscomposed supposed contradictions it is a good starting point or reference point. Find the expert from the cite on the topic in McDowell. That's why I suggested it as a starting point not the whole story. Edersheim is a Jewish source that is good also.R.C. Sproul however is a good scholar. He isnt biased you unjustly concluded that because he has come to a definate conclusion that is other than yours...that does not equal bias. He has earned credibility and he cites other experts and again would be a good starting point not the finishing point.To be versed on both sides of an issue you should get a couple of these books on christian apologetics to know both sides and investigate the claims then of the apologists. I have done so. I debated in college for the #1 ranked college at the time and did exactly this type of study on the bible, evolution, economics and psychology. I can recite both sides of an issue and the strenths and weakenesses of each but I have come to a definate conclusion as has McDowell and Sproul...a definate conclusion does not equal bias. If you think they are biased take your own advice you gave me here and demonstrate it..."it isnt so just because you say it is". If you are unwilling to read the apologists and their sources on an issue you will be biased and closed minded yourself. You dont seem like that type of guy so far. Oh I almost forgot. Read Paul Johnson a noted award winning historian "A History of the Jews." You cant argue with that source!

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Be responsible and demonstrate it. He who asserts must prove. Haley's is quite good, a standard in the field and the first of it's kind and anyone interested in the topic of supposed. I have read the entire thing and do not find your statement to be even remotely accurate so I dispute it and challenge you to be responsible. I will be looking into the Jeremiah grouping explanation later when I have more time as I proposed it from memory from research I did years and years ago on purported contradictions in the Bible which 99.9% end up being poor superficial scholarship on the part of the critic.Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box.

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

It's your assertion it's up to you to prove. Why should I fulfill your argumentation burdens? Again he who asserts must prove a basic tenet of logic and argumentation.Just what I expected a cop out. Edited by AdminPD, : AdminMsg

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Sorry I did not have time to find this last nite. I got involved in too many threads but here is a good reference to the practice of the jews at the time of Jesus to quote the head of a grouping for a passage in the groupingShabir claims that Matthew falsely attributes a prophecy made by Zechariah to Jeremiah:"So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: 'They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me.'" Matthew 27:7-10
Matthew's citation is actually a conflation of Zechariah 11:12-13 and Jeremiah 19:1-13 and 32:6-9. There is a very simple explanation why Matthew would attribute the prophecy to Jeremiah:"... Why did Mattiyahu ascribe the words to Jeremiah? One suggestion is supported by Talmudic references: the scroll of the Prophets may have originally begun with Jeremiah (the longest book, by word count), not Isaiah; if so Mattiyahu, by naming Jeremiah is referring to the Prophets as a group; not naming the particular prophet quoted." (Dr. David Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary [Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.; Clarksville, Maryland 1996 fifth edition], p. 83)
Furthermore, it was a common Jewish exegetical practice to link together passages which had identical words or phrases. Liberal NT exegete John C. Fenton, a Muslim favorite, while commenting on Matthew 2:5-6, noted:
"The prophecy is from Mic. 5.2, but it is not given in the LXX translation, nor is it an exact rendering of the Hebrew text, 2 Sam 5.2 MAY have been combined with the Micah prophecy; combining of similar Old Testament passages WAS A REGULAR FEATURE OF RABBINIC STUDY OF THE SCRIPTURES." (Fenton, Saint Matthew - The Penguin New Testament Commentaries, Penguin Books, 1963, p. 46; bold and capital emphasis ours)
This practice is known as gezera shewa, and demonstrates that Matthew was thoroughly Jewish in his use and exegesis of the OT text. http://answering-islam.org/...abir-Ally/favorites.htm#mt27_9

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

"However, composite attributions suit a common practice of Jewish exegetes. Z. H. Chages in The Student's Guide to the Talmud [172ff] relates a practice of the rabbis of quoting various persons under one and the same name. The rabbis "adopted as one of their methods that of calling different personages by one and the same name if they found them akin in any feature of their characters or activities or if they found a similarity between any of their actions." Thus for example Malachi and Ezra are said to be the "same person" (Meg. 15a) because they both say similar things (Mal. 2:2, Ez. 10:2). Chages gives examples of as many as three people being treated as one person because of such similarities."Hope this helps, as I said it was a common Jewish practice. Apologies are in order!

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Wow impressive follow up!It looks like you made your point! I'll have to follow up as well.but I am curious about the point of this thread and the practice of
Gezera Shewa one of Hillel's 7 points. Doesn't this jewish practice (that no one believed me about!) satisfactorily answer the original question, the topic of this thread?

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

I'm assuming that the practice of Gezera Shewa enumerated by Hillel in his approach to scripture finally answers the question of this thread "Matthew 27:9: Quoted from Jeremiah?" Everyone who doubted me has dropped the issue and dont even have the decency to acknowledge it. But in debate lack of response is to concede the point.The new question you pose 'but is it prophecy' I would have to state the obvious...yes because Matthew, the disciple said it was after an encounter with the risen christ "And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets. He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" Luke 24:27The rest of the book does not even remotely support your satire theory. It would be a hasty generalizing taking a small part and qualifying the whole with it with the small part highly questionable.Edited by ReformedRob, : No reason given.

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Or I got involved in too many threads and havent had time to gather my evidence and respond!In this thread there has been ample time for many protagonists to have responded!You do keep me on my toes!Go back to the Tyre prophecy I just reamed you and purple dawn in my response to purple dawn.

---

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"