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Author Topic:   the intellectual enemies of freedom
Trump won 
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Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 9 of 53 (356716)
10-15-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Omnivorous
10-14-2006 11:20 PM


Re: Determinism and indeterminacy
quote:
But how does he come by this mind? Was its acquisition random? No, the mind, too, was sorted and sifted out by the grand DNA computation of the ages. The great advantage of individual and social responses that exceed the constraints of instinctive behavior moved the survival arms race out of the pure arena of tooth and claw, speed and strength: a mind that could record and reflect upon past outcomes, that could synthesize novel responses, fueled the evolution of both more powerful minds and their hugely increased power when linked with other minds, past and present: culture.
and
quote:
Yet the mind, too, is subject to the gene-impacting consequences of failures and successes, the same sifting and sorting that removes rabbits too slow to run from the data set; minds that make too many poor choices are the products of genes that are thus less likely to reproduce.
These statements degrade the quality of man for man is but a product. Our actions in a cycle of natural selection become nearly predestined. Our choices are limited as our minds are.
quote:
This, I suppose, is your chaotic Darwinist determinism, though chaotic indeterminacy may be more accurate, if less rhetorical. The rabbit can do no more than respond instinctively, and the responses will be virtually dictated by the stimuli. The mind removes the limiting constraints of instinct--limiting because the great DNA computer is glacially slow--and allows the individual organism and its societies to generate more complex and sometimes novel responses.
Our minds are man's saving grace but...
quote:
Yet the mind, too, is subject to the gene-impacting consequences of failures and successes, the same sifting and sorting that removes rabbits too slow to run from the data set; minds that make too many poor choices are the products of genes that are thus less likely to reproduce
the mind's choices are limited, man's nature is predisposed, we are free in a limited fashion. It is as a prisoner that is free within a prison cell. Sartre says that freedom is man and that there is nothing man cannot do but what is the sense of this if our minds are limited, our choices are limited. We do not have a blank canvas with any possibility but the form of art has already been decided, the way we make our strokes is not an action we are to choose.
Depression sets in as one sees how determined our actions truly are according to Natural selection and according to Hard determinists.
This is why it may be necessary to reject this entirely. I am a libertarian because it is the only philosophy that does not dishearten me, it gives me hope that free will exists.
In this mindset how can you possibly validate or justify your own existence? How can one find purpose in an existence such as the one described?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Omnivorous, posted 10-14-2006 11:20 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Omnivorous, posted 10-15-2006 6:21 PM Trump won has replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 11 of 53 (356747)
10-15-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Omnivorous
10-15-2006 6:21 PM


Re: Determinism and indeterminacy
Your post that I replied to was one of the best posts I've read.
quote:
whether Darwinists are enemies of intellectual freedom
I believe this is true, but I don't believe this is necessarily wrong (morally). It may be unnatural for a worshipper of reason to be anything other than a hard determinist.
quote:
My existence seems as valid and justified as any other, and I want to see things as they are, not as I might wish them to be.
I am assuming that when you say sight or "to see things" you are referring to truth. You personally find truth within the physical world. Your existence is as valid as any other because one's purpose in life is entirely subjective. Although one can form an argument for utilizing some aspect of their physical traits.
For example: since man has a cognitive ability, man must put this to use. For a man that does not utilize his legs will not walk. This is where one can form an argument for being and a greater purpose of recognizing one's existence.
I am not saying any of this condescendingly. I hope you don't find my terms derogatory whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Omnivorous, posted 10-15-2006 6:21 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 14 of 53 (356859)
10-16-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by JavaMan
10-16-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Evolutionary Friends of Freedom
quote:
There is nothing about a deterministic world-view that necessarily precludes free will.
To the contrary, hard determinism means there are no free actions. By definition, since everything is causally determined; noone acts freely.
quote:
If 'freedom' confers a selective advantage, then doesn't the evolutionary account of human development provide quite an inspiring vision, not at all the clanking, mechanical vision that you seem to observe?
With choices that are endowed only through natural selection, limited through one's environment?
Edited by -messenjah of one, : grammar

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1269 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 20 of 53 (356988)
10-17-2006 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by JavaMan
10-17-2006 4:13 AM


Re: Evolutionary Friends of Freedom
Yeah Java, I don't believe it's true either but that's determinism. I guess you could be a soft determinist.
I should scan some stuff I have
needed terms to know:
-traditional compatibilism
-heirarchal compatibilism
-second-order volitions which defy instinct i.e. stimuli based
response.
edit: I wrote a 1st-rate primer on the problem of free will and all of these terms are defined and I go through all of it. I am with Sartre on this one though, I am a libertarian.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : provided

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