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Author Topic:   Instinct - evolved or better answer?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 73 (402018)
05-23-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by MartinV
05-16-2007 5:01 PM


Re: Origin of instincts
Explanation of the phenomenon that some kind of worms having parasites start to eat poisonous leaves (they do not eat it normally) to get rid of them (Carl Zimmer: Parasite Rex) could not be explained by chance of eating this leaves and learning and transmitting experience into descendants I suppose. Such innante instinct - according darwinism - evolved independetly of any experience. Random mutation in DNA caused that worms having such mutation and being infected start to seek and eat the given kind of plants. Am I right?
No. You're kinda looking at it backwards, IMHO.
Random mutation in DNA caused that worms having such mutation and being infected to do various things, supposedly. All the worms that did something OTHER than eat the leaves died. This leaves us with only the worms that have the parasite AND eat the leaves.
Make sense?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : spelling error

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by MartinV, posted 05-16-2007 5:01 PM MartinV has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 73 (402882)
05-30-2007 2:37 PM


bump for MartinV
Did you read Message 59?

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by MartinV, posted 06-01-2007 5:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 73 (403865)
06-05-2007 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by MartinV
06-01-2007 5:12 PM


Re: bump for MartinV
Yet other species of worms are sometimes infected too. They do not eat poisonous leaves to get rid of the parasites but neverthenless they thrive as well.
Well, like you said, they are other species of worms! I'm sure all kinds of different things happen to them. What's your point?
Natural selection seems to be very fond of the other worm species.
So what?
What the hell are you typing about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by MartinV, posted 06-01-2007 5:12 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by MartinV, posted 06-09-2007 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 73 (404766)
06-09-2007 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by MartinV
06-09-2007 4:38 PM


Re: bump for MartinV
Well, like you said, they are other species of worms! I'm sure all kinds of different things happen to them. What's your point?
What do you mean by "different things happen to them"?
things happen to them = phenotype
Here’s what I said in Message 59:
quote:
Random mutation in DNA caused that worms having such mutation and being infected to do various things, supposedly.
You only suppose that behind each behaviour (like eating poisonous leaves) is random mutation and natural selection as source of it.
I suppose, yes.
Here’s what you supposed in Message 59:
Random mutation in DNA caused that worms having such mutation and being infected start to seek and eat the given kind of plants. Am I right?
You make it seem like the mutation finds the need for the behavior. Actually, mutations are capable of causing all kinds of random phenotypes. The phenotypes that are not exhibiting the needed behavior die, leaving only the ones that are. Afterwards, it kinda looks like the mutation found the need. I can see why you’ve misunderstood and was trying to help. You even asked if you were right.
You're not totally wrong, because ultimately the mutation is responsible for the behavior, but like I said in Message 59:
quote:
You're kinda looking at it backwards, IMHO.
I suspect you that you even in blue spots on the wings margin of butterflies Nymphalis antiopa sees "natural selection".
Don’t tell me what I would think and then ridicule it, ass.
Please let us know what "different things happen" to larvae of Pheosia tremula, Drymonia ruficornis, Panaxia dominula, Nymphalis polychloros, Nymphalis antiopia?
I’m not familiar with those species but that doesn’t really matter for what I’m trying to say.
What different things happen to butterflies of them that they have different coloration and patterns of wings?
The inheritance of different genotypes causes different phenotypes.
Or better: If you want I can find you examples of different larvae eating the same plants and having not only different "look" but also different wing patterns of adult stage as butterflies.
If you think it will help, bring it on. I’m failing to see the relevance.
What the hell are you typing about?
Calm down. Just some examples from the Nature where obviously darwinian mantras of "random mutation" and "natural selection" as source of the phenomena is funny enough to everyone.
Its funny to you because you’ve misunderstood it or are 'looking at it backwards'.
You asked if you were right when I thought you weren't, and I’m just trying explain it.
Everyone else just kinda ignored you. With the condescending tone, and the irrelevant stuff, I can see why. You're kinda mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by MartinV, posted 06-09-2007 4:38 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2007 6:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 69 by MartinV, posted 06-09-2007 6:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 73 (405566)
06-13-2007 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by MartinV
06-09-2007 6:23 PM


Re: bump for MartinV
You have to think so - tertium non datur.
No, I don't have to think anything.
So if a darwinist cannot obscure the problem with "sexual selection" I can tell pretty well what a darwinian explanation is, ass.
You're acting like an ass because you're labelling me as a darwinist, whatever that is, and then telling me that I must think like other darwinists.
Even a Creationist could explain to you your misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution. Would you tell them that they must think those things too?
I’m not familiar with those species but that doesn’t really matter for what I’m trying to say.
It matters.
It doesn't matter because all I'm trying to do is explain to you your misunderstandings on what the Theory of Evolution says. It doesn't matter if the Theory is correct or not to show that you're misunderstanding the theory (be it true or false).
how is it possible that on the same area and at the same time coexist many similar species (larvae or butterfiles) with different behaviour and different color patterns and yet obviously with the same set of predators?
They have different genotypes.
Do you see there any "natural selection" in action?
Its not always easy to "see" the natural selection. I'm sure it gets pretty complicated.
Its funny to you because you’ve misunderstood it or are 'looking at it backwards'.
I can assure you that it is funny to some experts too, or at least weird - I quoted them elsewhere
Fuck your experts, I'm typing to you.
Random mutation has nothing to do with evolution.
But we are typing about your misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution, of which, random mutation has very much to do with.
All mutations we observe destroy genetic information.
But that is just false.
I don't even want to get into it with you. You seem to have a motive against the ToE and I doubt you would even listen. Besides, I've seen your posts before and "you aint havin any of it".
What is your motive against the ToE and why do you have it?
Are you a creationist? An IDist? What's your problem with it?
No darwinian explanation: consequently stuff is irrelevant.
Bullshit. You just wish that was true so you can maintain your motive. That's intellectually dishonest.
You want to not accept the ToE. Why is that?
And why refer to it as darwinian? Hasn't the theory changed since him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by MartinV, posted 06-09-2007 6:23 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by MartinV, posted 06-13-2007 6:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 73 (405574)
06-13-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by MartinV
06-13-2007 6:07 PM


Re: bump for MartinV
What does your reply have anything to do with the majority of my post?
now people like you think that they possess some kind of esoteric teaching.
If it is so esoteric then how do people like me understand it?
You only misunderstand it because you have some kind of problem with it before you even begin to try and understand it. Your an opponent before you start reading, it seems. Why is that?
They refined the hypothesis with mendelism, sexual selection, neutral drift, neutral draft, mutation bias, molecular drive, with evolutionary constraints
Its good that the theory is refined. That shows that we are learning more and being intellectually HONEST.
At least you've finally seemed to admit that you might have misunderstood the theory. Even if you still had to do it with insults to darwinists.
I wasted a lot of time with marxism many years ago.
Fucking MARXISM!!, man you've got a hell of a curveball.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by MartinV, posted 06-13-2007 6:07 PM MartinV has not replied

  
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