Instinct - evolved or better answer?

I take it here that you're proposing that cultural transmission (i.e. teaching / observing) is not a mechanism. I can fish around for information, but as far as I can tell, in many behaviors such transmission is not necessary.Given that, then there's one question I didn't feel you addressed accurately. I can accept the "it's an engineering problem" stance, save for one aspect--why aren't there large numbers of weaver birds who fail to solve the problem? You haven't given a compelling reason why the birds solve the problem at all.What is necessary for weaver birds to be able to solve the problem? Surely having the tools is not enough. What cognitive capacities are found that connect the tools and resources with the final product?I don't have the answer, but I think it's important in giving a full story about innate abilities.Ben

Right. So that's what we're trying to figure out. And I think it's a good question to ask. Right. So I think we agree, the (assumed) facts that 1. the birds show nest-building without teaching and 2. we don't see numbers of birds failing to build nests are important data points in determining what "innate" mechanisms are used. I think there's one that you're missing, having to do with (part of)#4 (that a nest must be X big): birds must have some mechanism for taking their size into account. Do birds "realize" that they're "just so" big? I guess so, we don't see birds trying to fit through cracks that they can't fit through, and we don't see birds making nests the wrong size (too big, too small). Maybe we can add this "knowledge of size of self" as 4a).1) and 5) seem ... "innate" to me. I'd also put "desire" in quotes, but that doesn't really matter.The big questions I have are,

1. where does 3) come from?
2. Do we need a "6) ability to make a nest"? Seems to me 1) - 5) are good enough to make a "great weaved wall" of grass, a "leaning tower of gras", or a "grass-effel tower" Or another way to think of it, maybe 1) isn't enough. You might want to make a nest, but maybe you only know how to make a grass coaster. Great for guests, but...

I do agree with your overall point that we don't have to do wholesale attribution, that small parts add up to large effects. I'm not trying to challenge that point, only to see if we can push towards finding what small parts are reasonable to suggest.If I actually had real time, I'd do some reading on this behavior. Especially 'cause everything I study asks this question--what are the minimum sets of pieces necessary for a behavior, and how does that relate to hardware?BenThis message has been edited by Ben, Sunday, 2005/11/27 08:58 AM

RAZD, good thoughts. Let's put them more in the perspective of what mechanisms are being postulated to be "innate" That's true. It sounds to me that you're proposing the "nest building" ability / behaviors (as described) are "innate"? Where does this knowledge of their predators come from? Does every bird need to learn to build the nest from the inside? I doubt we'd see puzzled birds, building nests the wrong size from the outside. I guess "standing inside to build" is part of the nest-building program?I'm asking the questions not as proposals; I really have no idea. I'm just trying to frame your ideas within the topic, and see what questions fall out.Ben

Let go of the idea of "conscious choice" and you'll at least be able to (attempt to) operationalize a lot more stuff.... but probably this is a discussion for another thread? I know that's the reason I didn't respond the first time I read it.Ben