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Instinct - evolved or better answer?

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Author Topic:   Instinct - evolved or better answer?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
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Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 6 of 73 (263584)
11-27-2005 7:16 PM 		Reply to: Message 5 by Ben!
11-27-2005 11:49 AM

Re: Good question
is a nest of grass fundamentally different than one from sticks?
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a robin's nest is often grass plastered with mud, but can also be sticks used the same way.
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stick nests need to be interlocked to keep from falling apart, and this is often accomplished by both pocking sticks in and pulling on some to rearrange them
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dealing with grasses could easily start with reeds that are stiff and gradually working down to the more flexible materials, where more time is spent pulling into place than pushing
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once you are pulling and looking for maximum interlock, all you need to do is alternate sides ... weaving.
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as for hanging, that could easily be a means to avoid predators that have to remain on tops of branches, as would being able to move out to the ends of flexible branches instead of staying in the crotches.
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And if the bird builds the nest around itself then it will fit eh?
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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 Message 5 by Ben!, posted 11-27-2005 11:49 AM Ben! has replied
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 Message 7 by Ben!, posted 11-27-2005 7:23 PM RAZD has replied
  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 8 of 73 (263598)
11-27-2005 7:58 PM 		Reply to: Message 7 by Ben!
11-27-2005 7:23 PM

Re: Good question
It sounds to me that you're proposing the "nest building" ability / behaviors (as described) are "innate"?
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No, just that they have developed over time. Many birds nest on bare ground - heck look at penguins - nests just offer more varieties of protection and dealing with environmental changes ... and freedom for the parents to forage for food.
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Where does this knowledge of their predators come from?
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Seeing it happen. Having a nest robbed while the parents can only watch or pester to no effect. They can survive even if the eggs\offspring don't.
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I doubt we'd see puzzled birds, building nests the wrong size from the outside.
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Many first year birds build several nests before getting one that is used, and in many bird species the males build the nests to attract the females who inspect them for suitability. You will also see birds get in and "final fit" nests with the lining material for a good snug fit. That packing on the inside can make all the difference eh?
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Wanna get lucky? Build a good nest.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 13 of 73 (263874)
11-28-2005 6:27 PM 		Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
11-28-2005 7:13 AM

how do you program hard-wird responses? how do they come to be in the first place?
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 14 of 73 (263876)
11-28-2005 6:30 PM 		Reply to: Message 11 by Omnivorous
11-28-2005 11:35 AM

Re: Males Build
... He buzzes and dances about to attract a female,...
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and they've learned to mimic the sounds of cell phones ...
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 18 of 73 (265171)
12-02-2005 10:47 PM 		Reply to: Message 17 by FliesOnly
12-01-2005 8:55 AM

well certain things like left-handedness can be "hard wired" it seems to me, the problem comes in what the left hand is doing versus the right. When does behavior become a conscious choice versus a chemical response to stimuli?
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I tried sorting this out mentally last night and bogged down. Bogged now too.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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 Message 17 by FliesOnly, posted 12-01-2005 8:55 AM FliesOnly has replied
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 Message 20 by FliesOnly, posted 12-05-2005 8:42 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 22 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2005 9:44 PM RAZD has replied
  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 21 of 73 (265888)
12-05-2005 9:16 PM 		Reply to: Message 20 by FliesOnly
12-05-2005 8:42 AM

Re: What are we talking about?
I'm not sure I believe in "hard-wired" responses. It is just too pat, smacks of old style homocentric thinking, and a bit too deterministic (no free will?). Bees "dance" to describe where and what they found - is it hard-wired behavior or language?
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-05-2005 10:17 PM RAZD has replied
  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 24 of 73 (265913)
12-05-2005 10:42 PM 		Reply to: Message 22 by Ben!
12-05-2005 9:44 PM

yeah, it gets hazy fast.
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can you edit the link above so that it doesn't make the page so wide?
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thanks.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 25 of 73 (265914)
12-05-2005 10:48 PM 		Reply to: Message 23 by pink sasquatch
12-05-2005 10:17 PM

Re: lateral thinking vs. conscious choice?
lol. I've had that problem trying to set up an SOP and then revising it the next time ... and the next time ... and the next time .... (just making it better honest ... but spending more time with each alteration than it takes to just run the program).
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A range of abilities, a range of selection constraints?
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I like "whimfully"
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
​
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-05-2005 10:17 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 60 of 73 (402027)
05-23-2007 5:12 PM 		Reply to: Message 3 by Ben!
11-27-2005 10:29 AM

already covered
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Edited by RAZD, : deleted
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Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)
we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Ben!, posted 11-27-2005 10:29 AM Ben! has not replied
  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 68 of 73 (404772)
06-09-2007 6:04 PM 		Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
06-09-2007 5:34 PM

Re: bump for MartinV
Everyone else just kinda ignored you. With the condescending tone, and the irrelevant stuff, I can see why. You're kinda mean.
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Don't lose you cool. MartinV is - if nothing else - extremely obtuse when it comes to logic and evidence. Stubborn willfull ignorance is like that. The fact that he is still making the same arguments as the first day he posted here should be a clue.
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Message 69
In case of butterflies and mushrooms there is no sexual selection responsible for coloration (in the second case it is obvious - in the first case: butterflies do not have generally good vision).
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Case in point.
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Edited by RAZD, : added example.
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Edited by RAZD, : format
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Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)
we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-09-2007 5:34 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
  
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