Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,929 Year: 4,186/9,624 Month: 1,057/974 Week: 16/368 Day: 16/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Duck Billed Platypus
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 69 (407465)
06-26-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by bluegenes
06-26-2007 6:48 AM


Re: There is nothing to be problem for evolution
Aren't monotremes the closest living things to the mammal-like reptiles that evolutionary theory predicts as our ancestors?
Not exactly. Remember that the monotreme of today is as distant from those early ancestors as we are.
But they can still teach us much. A few years back some researchers at Duke were looking at "genomic imprinting". In their study they were looking at platypus and opossum and they expected that "genomic imprinting" would not be found in either the monotremes or the marsupials, but at least in the case of one gene, they found imprinting in the opossum.
This tells us that the mechanism of "genomic imprinting" goes back even further than thought.
You can read more on the study here.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by bluegenes, posted 06-26-2007 6:48 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by bluegenes, posted 06-26-2007 1:02 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 69 (407575)
06-26-2007 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dragoness
06-26-2007 8:01 PM


Prayers going with you. Been there, had to run more than once out there.
May it all work out for you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dragoness, posted 06-26-2007 8:01 PM Dragoness has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 69 (408892)
07-05-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by WS-JW
07-05-2007 4:44 PM


The things that make up Natural Selection
If you think any system including this natural selection one, can be made by chance, then I shalln't talk to you anymore.
Of course the things that make up Natural Selection can be the products of Chance. If lightning strikes and starts a fire it is chance. If a meteor falls and creates a world-wide cloud cover, it is chance. It is pure chance that the Tunguska strike happened when it did and so was over desolate parts of Siberia instead of several hours later when it would have been a strike on heavily populated Europe.
To imply that even Natural Selection does not involve chance is simply to deny the obvious.
When one reads Darwin books one notices the common usage of words like "probabably" ... "maybe" ... "what if" ... "this could of" etc etc. You then realise this is not truth but just philosphization by an old man.
Au contraire. It is indicative of someone seeking the truth as opposed to the Untruth and down right falsehoods that are Biblical Creationism.
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This thread is on the Duck Billed Platypus and whether or not it presents any problems to the Theory of Evolution. Actually, it does not and in fact, helps answer many of those "probables" and "maybes".
Some examples.
The inner ear bones were originally part of the jaw, and in the monotremes, we see the bones have migrated from the jaw, but the opening for the ear is also very close to the base of the jaw as predicted.
The eggs spend far more time internally that in birds and reptiles. In the Platypus, the eggs spend about 28 days in utero and only about 10 days externally, while with birds like chickens it is more than reversed, the egg being internal for about one day and then external for twenty or more days.
The eggs themselves are not hard shelled like those of birds, but rather leathery like those of reptiles.
The Platypus produces milk from mammary glands but has no teats. Instead the milk is simply secreted from glands like sweat glands.
No, the Platypus is not a problem at all for evolution of the Theory of Evolution, but it is yet another nail in the coffin of the bankrupt nonsense called Biblical Creationism.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by WS-JW, posted 07-05-2007 4:44 PM WS-JW has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 07-05-2007 6:11 PM jar has not replied
 Message 51 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 2:11 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 69 (409089)
07-07-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by MartinV
07-07-2007 2:11 AM


Re: The things that make up Natural Selection
But why didn't evolved in platypus teats? Like in placental mammals and marsupial? It seems that natural selection which led to development of teats in mammals and marsupial somehow preferred staus quo of milk oozes in platypus. Or is platypus still in it's evolutionary journey towards teats? But it looks like all mutations towards teats were selected against. I would say Natural selection is sometimes as great mystery as other religious concepts are.
Yes, I do not doubt that YOU might say that.
It seems that natural selection which led to development of teats in mammals and marsupial somehow preferred staus quo of milk oozes in platypus.
That of course, is simply an incorrect statement. Natural Selection does not lead anywhere, it is only after the fact.
Or is platypus still in it's evolutionary journey towards teats?
The platypus, like every other organism, is still on its evolutionary journey but not towards anything except reproducing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 2:11 AM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 11:02 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 69 (409096)
07-07-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by MartinV
07-07-2007 11:02 AM


Tits Up!
No.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 11:02 AM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 11:12 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 69 (409100)
07-07-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by MartinV
07-07-2007 11:12 AM


Re: Tits Up!
So there weren't mutations leading towards teats in placental/marsupials?
Totally irrelevant. What does that have to do with mutations in monotremes?
By what mechanism teats arouse if rendom mutation and natural selection are excluded?
Please show where I excluded either?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 11:12 AM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 11:24 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 69 (409107)
07-07-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by MartinV
07-07-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Tits Up!
So on your opinion random mutation and natural selection are not excluded but they are also not included in origin of teats in placentals/marsupials. You don't exclude them but you also disagree that mutations leading towards teats were "selected for". Nice dialectic.
Nice misrepresentation of what I have said.
Mutations are random. What happens in one line is unrelated to what happens in another.
The facts are that certain mutations happened and were NOT Filtered Out and that led to splits in the descent.
It is not a zero sum game. If something is not fatal, and fatal before the critter reproduces, it can be carried forward.
If a critter is adequately suited to live long enough to reproduce, it will continue to do so. If some of those critters have a mutation which gives them some advantage, they will also reproduce.
That does not mean that the earlier form disappears.
The result is two lines, a branching, but both forms are still "good enough" to live long enough to reproduce.
Natural Selection does not play favorites. It does not select the "better". If a life form is "good enough" it passes through the filter.
The second big mistake is to assume that the mutations for forming teats that may have occurred in monotremes were selected against. That is simply false.
If at some time long in the past, some monotreme had a random mutation that led to teats, it too passed through the filter and those critters became something new, perhaps marsupials.
The monotremes of the original population that did not have that mutation still kept evolving into the modern monotremes, but those with the mutation became something else.
It is not that Natural Selection selected for and against the same mutation. The new mutation passed through the filter of Natural Selection and so did the critters without the mutation.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by MartinV, posted 07-07-2007 11:24 AM MartinV has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024