Hitler in the 21st century

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The problem is that you have used an anecdote of local democracy to critique something you feel has global reach. If you are wrong about the local incident, then your global critique fails.

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How so? I'm highlighting the fact that 'right-on' justifications are used as a substitute to reason, pragmatism and hard facts. Whether, in this specific instance, it's right to impose traffic measures or not is besides the point.

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That self-righteous, politically correct beliefs were and are used to justfity "almost anything" is merely your assertion: the merit of your case, so far, rests entirely on a local anecdote.

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I just used this local anecdote as it was a recent example which partly triggered my post. However, such arguments are used almost daily on a vast scope. Off the top of my head:
- War on Iraq: when no WMDs were found, Mr Blair justified the huge of loss of life by saying that he did the 'right thing' and that Saddam was a 'bad man' and 'evil dictator' and 'he would have killed more'. The if-it-saves-one-life fallacy in all its glory.
- Road charging and motoring taxation. Under the guise of environmentalism our government taxes motorists to the hilt and justifies it with the 'reducing carbon foorprint' excuse. When it's pointed out that more effective alternatives exist that can be implemented much easier and cheaper it just refuses to listen and
justifies it by the 'environment is our top priority' smugness.
- School violence and harassment. Teachers are verbally and physically abused by pupils and there's nothing they can do about it. Justification: giving an abusive child a clip round the ear is 'not the right thing to do'.
I could go on an don but let's leave it at that for now.

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How are hundreds suffering? Because they have to slow down?

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Because it takes them longer to get anywhere, because going over speed ramps the size of Berlin Wall causes discomfort (particularly to elderly arthritis sufferers I'm told), because they have to re-arrange their whole lifestyle so that some self-righteous tin-pot dictator can sleep better at night knowing that he's done 'the right thing'.

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Is this "a campaign of punishment for drivers"--or a reasonable public policy designed to prevent needless fatalities?

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First, the moment politically correct justifications, like the ones described above, come into play reason goes out of the window.
Second, any measures that target a particular group in order to counter-act something that is beyond this group's ability to control are punitive.

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How are drivers going to "end up losing their livelihood" in this case?

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You get caught four times driving at 35 mph in a 30 zone you're going to lose your license. Without the use of a car most people (including me) can't get to work. They lose their livelihood.

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Speed limits in a local jurisdiction vary according to the local statutory authority; apparently, in your locale, the changes you object to were established through a democratic process: therefore, a democratic process of repeal is available to you. In my experience, elected representatives respond to community pressures in these sorts of situations--apparently some members of your community saw a need for these changes prior to any self-righteous, politically correct arguments being made at the council meeting.

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The democratic process went right out of the window the moment the "what about the kids?" card came out. Even people who initially objected were shamed into non-arguing with that one. If the meeting had been about invading Poland instead of traffic measures, the same outcome would be guaranteed.

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You can mount all the campaigns you like, but you will not change the behavior of children, who lack the brain maturity to behave with the caution of adults. I am confident that you would not ascribe your child's grave injury or death at the hands of a speeding driver to your own failure to indoctrinate that child with perfect caution.

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I presume that by speeding you mean 'going over the speed limit' rather than 'driving excessively fast for the conditions'. Should my daughter be knocked down by a car I would initially question my (or my wife's) level of care at the time, rather than immediately apportion blame to someone else, as is the norm nowadays.That's why we don't let our daughter play on the street, although it costs us more to buy a house with a large back garden and suffer the inconvenience of all her friends going in and out of our house at will. It's because we are responsible for her well being, not some passing motorist.

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Isn't it your emotive response that we see at work here?

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If by emotive you mean passionate, then yes. That doesn't invalidate my point in any way.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

what youi are suffering is not "right-on"isum , its just classic power politics , being practices by the classic politian who should never have been allowed into power ..the problem with local councils , and national goverments is it attracts the wrong sort .. people who think they know whats best and want power so they can enact it ... and democracy is the worst as it lets even nuts have his/her say and to run for office ... plus we are all far to lazy to get up and vote them out ..Hitler was a nut , if he had not gained power he would have done little harm , but the condistions allowed his rise , and as always happens all that is need for the bad to win is the good to do nothing .your council meeting would most likely have 70%+ of those there being "the regulars" those who always turn up , you and a few others turn up as the nites debate affects you .. so you get shouted down by the majority.. this is where democracy does not work .. you have to turn up every time .. even for the debate on what colour bin bags to use ..because the people who are "concerned " about the bin bags are the nuts who want power , and by always being there they establish control....
and these are the sort who will use any "phrase" to gain their ends ..what about the children ... blame the (instert race/ class/ sex/nation)for it....PC statements are just another set of ammo for the political animals to use , just like falling moral standards, TV shows , women at work , abortion ,foreigners , football fans , drug use , the other political party.go back and look at where the speed reducing measure are put .. ill bet they do not effecdt the "council members" to much ..

I know, that's why I gave you my opinion on why I thought people are focussing on Hitler and not your point. Your exaggerated example was so exaggerated it drew people's attention elsewhere. Welcome to humanity, I'm afraid. I don't think there has been a civilization that didn't have this going on. Politicians being twats is not the same as Hitler being successful in a crude military coup.

You should know better than that. You've started a classic don't-think-about-elephants scenario. You can't put elephants or Hitler or homosexuality in the title of the topic and then expect people to ignore them. Hitler relied on an audience that was used to obeying orders without question. I don't think they were "conditioned to accept ideological causes" at all. They were just given government sanction to do what they were quite willing to do anyway. The most obvious "non-parallel" is the fact that the German people were willing to accept the suspension of their constitution.

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Is this a prequel to Buck Rogers?TTFN,WK

dude. it's a speed bump, not the blood of virgins.

see, this is the problem with common thought.hitler was not a nut. he was not a monster. he was a brilliant leader and a very sane strategist. it just so happened that his goal was the destruction of non-germanic peoples as the scapegoat for german poverty post-wwi.sure he got a little flustery into the war, but he never lost his mind.

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Today, we have a great number of people conditioned to accept a different set of ideological causes (environment, children welfare, terrorism, etc) in order to justify measures that restrict their freedom of movement, speech and expression.

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Welcome to humanity, I'm afraid. I don't think there has been a civilization that didn't have this going on.

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Well, we can definitely understand it happening in medieval England, even Nazi Germany up to a point. What's our excuse? we should know better!

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Politicians being twats is not the same as Hitler being successful in a crude military coup.

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Hitler didn't assume power in a coup. He had success in a democratic election and was appointed chancellor by the lawful president of the country. The Nazis had over 200 seats in the parliament. Hitler had more of a popular mandate to lead his country than Gordown Brown has to lead ours!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

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Hitler was a nut , if he had not gained power he would have done little harm , but the conditions allowed his rise , and as always happens all that is need for the bad to win is the good to do nothing .

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Yes and the conditions included the general unquestioning acceptance by the populace of certain moral justifications. Think about it, the majority of Germans accepted the persecution of Jews on the general principle that it was for the good of the nation, though such a correlation was never demonstrated, let alone quantified.Similarly, people today are conditioned to accept any cause in the name of the environment / child welfare / etc. without any critical thinking. Indeed anyone who dares criticize any such justifications is marginalised and branded as selfish/child-hating/unsociable etc.

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PC statements are just another set of ammo for the political animals to use , just like falling moral standards, TV shows , women at work , abortion ,foreigners , football fans , drug use , the other political party.

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yes, but at least I can question TV shows or drug-use justifications without my opponent assuming the high-ground and asking condescendingly "What, you have something against children/the environment/disabled people?"

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go back and look at where the speed reducing measure are put .. i'll bet they do not effecdt the "council members" to much ..

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funny you should say that, one of the main advocates of these measures lives in a farmhouse outside our village. He only comes in once or twice a week. He even gets his shopping delivered by Tesco! He won't even notice.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

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dude. it's a speed bump, not the blood of virgins.

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No. It's speedbumps. And speed cameras. And traffic lights. And lane closures. And they're everywhere.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

oh dear, not traffic controls! GENOCIDE!!!

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You should know better than that. You've started a classic don't-think-about-elephants scenario. You can't put elephants or Hitler or homosexuality in the title of the topic and then expect people to ignore them.

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it's a good job I didn't use my 'Jeffrey Dahmers on safari' analogy then.

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Hitler relied on an audience that was used to obeying orders without question.

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Yes, just like we're used to obey orders without questions. As long as they're to -allegedly- further some politically-correct cause.

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I don't think they were "conditioned to accept ideological causes" at all.

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Obeying orders doesn't happen just like that. It takes years of propaganda and social conditioning.

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The most obvious "non-parallel" is the fact that the German people were willing to accept the suspension of their constitution.

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What, you mean like we have already accepted the suspension of our freedoms ? Have you heard of "habeas corpus", one of the most ancient and fundamental principles of our society ? Well, it's gone - wave it goodbye! Ofcourse you guys lost it a long time ago, ergo Guantanamo Bay. We (British) don't have a written constitution but, if we did, rest assured it'd be crumpled up in the rubbish bin (only to be fined by the council for putting paper in the non-recyclable bin as it's not the 'right thing to do' you selfish planet hater, but I'm digressing...)

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

In another life, were you one of those people who went around saying: "dude. it's just the star of David on your lapel, not genocide." ??

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

Our excuse is that we're human: we are frightened and confused primates.It isn't a question of knowing better - we are perfectly capable of being aware of ourselves while simultaneously sabotaging ourselves. After a non definitive success in the election, Hitler consolidated his power by force, trying to get the army and the SA on his side. His political enemies were either arrested or murdered. In Hitler's translated words: In this hour I was responsible for the fate of the German people, and thereby I became the supreme judge of the German people. I gave the order to shoot the ringleaders in this treason...et it be known for all time to come that if anyone raises his hand to strike the State, then certain death is his lot.'It is this that I was referring to when I said Hitler would be unable to do this now - dozens of your opponents being 'sentenced' by your private army is sure to attract the kind of attention that propaganda is not likely to save. Yes - but less mandate than Hussein had...OK Hussein cheated. I think Hitler's majority beats almost every PM ever.Its funny how this subthread is so focussed on Hitler given how it started

No, it's nothing like a similar situation. Over here, "the government is always wrong", is the usual first reaction. In 1920's Germany, the idea that the government could be wrong would never have occurred to the vast majority of people. The Kaiser (who would have been welcomed back at any time) was the All-Father, the God-substitute who could never be questioned. On the contrary, people over here usually have a knee-jerk reaction against "politically correct" causes. Environmental causes, for example, are tolerated only if they aren't perceived to go against the "public good". So you contradict yourself. We haven't had those years of conditioning. That depends on who you define as "us". "We" are not the ones incarcerated at Guantanamo Bay, "they" are. Now, that's not a distinction that I approve of, but the fact remains that the vast majority of Americans have not had their rights infringed in a significant way (and I'm not an American, by the way).The erosion of rights for marginal groups is a danger signal, but there is no reason to suppose that that erosion will go in the direction of Nazi Germany. Trivializing the issue by Godwinizing it doesn't help.

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