Destroying Darwinism

Syamsu has discussed the "zero variation" NS scenario at length here before. The discussion began when Syamsu asked if there could be any NS if there was no variation. The reply was the same as the one you just provided, though it was also pointed out that since reproduction is never perfect that after the initial "no variation" generation there *would* be variation in subsequent generations, and meaningful NS could operate on that variation to the extent it was expressed phenotypically.While everyone who has answered this question for Syamsu has provided in essence the same answer, each person provides that answer in a different way using different words and perspectives, and Syamsu has proven skilled at seeing disagreements where none exist. For example, one person might say that NS still happens, it just isn't meaningful because the surviving organisms have the same genes as the ones that die, while another person might say that NS doesn't happen and gives the exact same reason. Everyone understands that these are the same answer, except Syamsu who points to the "disagreement" as proof that there's something rotten in the Denmark of evolution.--Percy

This might not be the best analogy. Distance runners definitely do not compete with clocks, nor do horses, nor do cars. No runner can know what time he's actually capable of on that day on that course under those conditions, and so he's constantly trading off in his mind how he feels versus who his competition is versus how his competition looks versus how far in front or in back his competitition is versus whether he thinks his competition may be playing possum versus what his competition has done in past races and so on and so forth. A runner will produce a completely different time running against the clock than against competition.--Percy

I won't pretend I understand any discussion involving Syamsu, but runners *do* interact, not only mentally in the way I described, but also physically. When there's a headwind, runner's will draft, and you'll even see this indoors in shorter races like the mile, and you often have to move to the outside to pass, forcing you to run further. Runners sometimes bump. In cross country you can only pass where's there's sufficient room, and the person in front can take the easier route. With cars and boats and bicycles drafting and physical positioning are extremely important. One boat can temporarily becalm another by moving in front of the wind, taking the wind out of its sails and leaving it stalled. And in roller derby the interaction gets even more physical.--Percy

I'd say a sprint comes closest to running against the clock. Still, there's something about having another person in the next lane that gets the adrenalyn flowing like no clock could ever do, and seeing someone pulling away from you can inspire you to a much greater effort than seeing digits click by.Running against people instead of clocks can also cause much slower efforts. For example, in early heats against lesser competition you'll probably push only hard enough to win, saving energy for later heats. And in longer races if you're approaching the finish line 20 yards in front you'll probably just coast across, while if you're being challenged you'll be in a sprint.I wasn't trying to support either yours or Syamsu's side. I've never seen Syamsu engaged in a discussion where his position made sense or where he gave any indication of understanding what anyone else was saying, so to be honest I don't understand the details of this discussion, I just thought the analogy *might* (emphasize the "might") not be appropriate - I wasn't completely sure.--Percy