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Author | Topic: The First Questions In The Bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The symbolism of the story is, in my opinion, a loss of relationship. What loss of a relationship? Before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge the relationship was about the same relationship one might have with a squid or a slug. Adam and Eve were just another animal.
They ceased allowing God to tell them who they were. Huh? Where is that in the story? It looks more like you are trying to twist the story to fit YOUR needs then to read what is really there. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Do you have a point?
You can't even keep the stories straight. The story about man created in God's image is not even part of the story of the Garden of Eden. Sure Adam and Eve were just animals, just as a sheep dog is sent out to tend the flock. And folk certainly always look for Lassie when she gets lost. And what my relationship happens to be is totally irrelevant to the story. Are you ever going to post something that has any relevance or importance? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Uh, again jaywill, what does any of that have to do with the topic?
You love to bring in irrelevant, unimportant and frankly false material, but what does any of that nonsense have to do with the thread? The topic is "the first question in the Bible" and "In other words, was the entire scenario meant to happen?" Well, since the various authors of the myths, wrote them that way, then yes, questioning was part of the storyline. But we need to remember that we are analyzing fiction. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Do you mean to suggest that God, Creator of all seen and unseen, has in reality never talked with Man? These so-called mythological stories are the only records we have where God talks with us. Sorry but that is illogical. A work of fiction can have an imaginary creature talking to imaginary people. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not real creatures talk to real people.
To say that the myths are entirely human created negates the potential human opportunities to understand God. All we are left with is our vain and controversial attempts to understand ourselves. I'm sorry, but is there any logic or reasoning behind those assertions? Why would a myth being human created negate "the potential human opportunities to understand God?" What do we have other than our own abilities to understand anything?
Its all a matter of belief, but I don't envision God as some Cosmic absentee Father who expects his young whippersnappers to grow up without Him having to show them any love. Again, where did anyone say that? All I have said is that a Loving Father expects the kids to grow up. Why do you say that God MUST do stuff for you to be a loving father? Why is it always what YOU get out of the deal? Why do you want a sugardaddy skydaddy?
In conclusion, I would say that it is a bit of a stretch and quite bold (and even a wee bit arrogant) to assume that the Bible is entirely a work of fiction. Fine, when you find someone who says that the Bible is entirely a work of fiction, please point that out.
There are some literary moments where human authors seek to explain and understand God as they know Him. It is vain to assert that nobody knows God, just because some of us don't. What does "as they know him" mean? Marshall Applewhite knew God. Charles Manson knew God. The question is not whether someone does know God, but "How do you know it is God?" How do you test God? Unless someone can explain how they know, they have nothing except a bare unsupported assertion. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How do you test God? You test God against reason, logic and reality. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes: What does your comment about the squid and the slug have to do with the topic? My "off topic" reply to your "off topic" reply is no more off topic then what prompted me to correct your erroneous interpretation. What I actually said in Message 9 was:
jar writes: What loss of a relationship? Before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge the relationship was about the same relationship one might have with a squid or a slug. Adam and Eve were just another animal. in response to Phat's comment found in Message 8 where he said:
Phat writes: The symbolism of the story is, in my opinion, a loss of relationship. My comment is relevant because before Adam and Eve, in the myth, ate from the Tree of Knowledge they were no different than any other animal, unable to understand right from wrong. There could be no more of a relationship between them and God than there was between God and any other animal. God might use them as we use a a dog to herd sheep or like we use good bugs to prevent bad bugs from eating crops, but even the dog often seems to know right from wrong, something that Adam and Eve were incapable of. Further, in the Garden of Eden fable there is no indication of any loss of a relationship with God, rather the relationship increased as the status of Adam and Eve increased after eating from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. God himself in the story alludes to the increase in status in Genesis 3:21-22.
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: jaywill writes: Since that what we are reading in Genesis many take as history and not myth, that is your assertion. I could just as easily say "Since the various authors were Chinese ....". The fact that many cannot tell fact from fiction is certainly true, but the fact that people mistake fiction for fact does not make the fiction fact. Certainly you could claim the authors of Genesis were Chinese, and it would carry about the same weight as your other posts.
jaywill writes: One thing you have been successful in demonstrating. That is the sheer stupidity with which a person falls into when questioning the word of God. Okay. LOL Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
PHAT: But arent those human constructs? How can you expect to put God in a box within the context of human wisdom? Why do you say "Human Wisdom?" What other wisdom could we have? And where did I say anything about putting God in a box? To test something can often mean to take something out of a box, to say, "Nope, don't fit in that box." Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The knowledge of good and evil would be the knowledge of self apart from God. And your support for that is found where?
God know they were going to disobey and eat the fruit. And your support for that is found where?
The very definition of freewill in the context of alternatives to God means becoming like god. And your support for that is found where? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I am familiar with the traditional take on the tale. For myself, I lean towards the spiritual death scenerio when I think about this scripture. I don't know that it says anything about immortality. Except of course, there is NOTHING in the story even hinting at spiritual death and it most certainly does speak of immortality as the very reason God becomes fearful and kicks them out. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You keep saying that. Yet you run away from the fact that God Himself acknowledged that Adam and Eve had become more like Him, not less. In addition, there are no indications in the GOE story of separation between God and Man. Adam and Eve were run out of the Garden, but nowhere does it say anything about becoming separated from God. In fact, the Garden is not shown as a dwelling place for God, God simply comes and goes, and continues to have direct contact with man throughout the Bible. The separation is NOT from God, but rather from the Tree of Life. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'll try and answer both posts in this one.
Spiritual death is not printed in the story anywhere literally, yet, the story itself hints at spiritual death to me completely. And you see that hint in what verse?
Why would the Tree of Life be the very reason Elohim becomes concerned and restricts access to the Garden? I don’t understand. Well the story explains that.
=Genesis 322 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Since man had become more like God, God feared he would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal, live forever. The story is a "Just So Story" and the issues are basically meant to explain life, why we die, why we seem to know good from evil and actually worry about it unlike many of the other animals, why we have to work at growing crops instead of simply foraging, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than for the other animals, why we fear snakes and why snakes don't have legs. God's behavior is a plot device for the author to explain the world. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Are you suggesting God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self as Adam and Eve were? Please provide support for your assertion. That makes no sense at all. Look, you are of course free to make up any fairytales you want, but this is in the Bible Study section. If you read the Garden of Eden story, there is nothing that suggests Spiritual Death or separation from God. According to the story, they were allowed to eat from the Tree of Life as long as they remained like all the other animals, incapable of knowing right from wrong and amoral. Once they have the capability of telling right from wrong, God fears that they will also eat from the Tree of Life and become even more like gods. The Trees are plot devices. That's all. Plot devices.
You don't usually typically see the inference literally in a parable (much less a verse). That's what makes it a parable. But you do see something that relates to the moral to be conveyed. In this case, the GOE story, there is nothing to even hint at some spiritual death or separation from God. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I was referring to the common assumption that was part of my catechism, and which says Adam and Eve were created with immortality, subsequently losing it when they ate of the Tree. Are you sure that is what you were taught in your catechism, because it really makes God an idiot. If Adam and Eve were created with immortality then there was no reason for the existence of a Tree of Life or for God banning them from the Garden so they could not eat from it. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I agree it makes no sense. Adam had become like God in what way? Adam and Eve were just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil. You seem to suggest God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil also, and He was afraid of Adam and Eve doing this too? LOL. No, that is NOT what I have said or suggest. You are a classic example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance tactic of misrepresentation. As soon as they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they had the capability.
Genesis 3 writes: 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." jar writes: God feared he would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal, live forever. to which Bailey replied:
quote: Have you ever read the Bible?
Genesis 3 writes: 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Bailey writes: You stated this about God's experience in the Garden.Please provide the verse that tells of God leaving the Garden. Genesis 2 writes: 8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. The Garden is just a small part of the world, one little Garden and Adam just the gardener.
Immortality combined with the inability to differentiate good from evil seems to be His reasoning for concern and restricted access. Sorry but that is just silly and 180 degrees away from what the Bible actually says. What seems to concern God, silly as it is, is immortality with the ability to discern good from evil. But remember it is a fable, a fairytale. And frankly, the Trees are just a small part, just a plot device to provide a background for the "Just So" stories. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You have to wonder about those who teach such things, particularly when it comes to immortality.
If Adam and Eve were created immortal then there was no reason for God to have created a Tree of Life. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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