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Author | Topic: The First Questions In The Bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Is it significant that the serpent was allowed to ask the first question? It seems significant. The human Spirit did not question God’s Wordwithout interference from outside our spiritual existence. Possibly, our willingness to doubt God, or rather give sway, to a physical creation over the Spirit of God seems to have created distance between our Spirit and the Spirit of God. Imagine the consequences exponentially . The more one doubts the Spirit of God (or believes a physical creation over God who is spiritual) the further they are separated from one another in the physical realm ("reality"). Sounded good on paper .
Were we meant to question God from the very first day? In other words, was the entire scenario meant to happen? God’s perfect plan may be to evolve and establish a conciseunderstanding of what doubt (sin) is, along with its cause and effect, and allow (freewill) each of his own accord to choose: belief (unification w/ God) or doubt (separation); each to its own consequence. Has man not devolved, spiritually, from the Presence and Knowledgeof God since being deceived, in the very beginnings, by doubt. By understanding doubt and its consequence, some would chooseBelief; in turn, continuing the evolution of being united within the Love and Understanding and Presence of The Almighty God, without losing your choice to resist its Presence. Or maybe not . Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
1)In order to be a Christian, must we accept the Bible as literally written?
Only as far as believing the Jesus gospel ( by Grace we are saved ), and the one commandment that sums the previous commandments . love your neighbors as yourself.
2) Were there no Bible, would it therefore be impossible for a person to get saved?
If the Bible didn’t exist, but God’s plan remained the same, we would need some form of communication of God’s grace.
3) If God foreknew how we humans would act and react, did He expect us to question
He expects some to question and doubt, and that some will just believe.
Him or did He expect us to tow the line? 4) Do you ever find yourself at odds with your logical mind versus what you have been taught to believe?
Not so much, I used to constantly . humans + religion = suckSorry, that’s kinda harsh. I should have equated it to “doubtful confusionists“. That’s probably not very nice either. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Are you equating sin with doubt? Not so much.Rather equating doubt of God’s advice (Word), providing you knew he existed (ex. He walked and talked with you ), to sin. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
I walk and talk with a lot of people. I feel free to doubt/question anything they say
Me too, when concerning people.I’m not referring to people . but rather God himself, assuredly. I'm thinking that sin is the actual screwing up, the making of bad decisions
And your entitled to . I view certain thoughts as sins... adultery, doubting God’s audible spoken Word (which I've yet to here) , etc. “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” . Jesus of Nazareth
not the gathering of information for the purpose of decision-making
Not the gathering of information for the purpose of decision-making,rather the choice that was made after the information was gathered, motivated by doubt, contempt , etc. God’s spoken Word being the good info, and the “snake’s” words being the evil info. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Unless God is speaking to you directly, the distinction is pretty useless.
Granted, it’s only useful to prove a point of speculation . either way we will have to keep things in proper context for anything to even potentially make sense. You and I aren't the best at this. I'd bet that about 100% of what you believe has come from human sources, not directly from God.
Bailey writes:
You win a lifetime supply of Rice-A-Roni . the San Francisco treat!
” . God’s audible spoken Word ( which I've yet to here) Adam and Eve were in the same boat
In that they were imperfect upon conception,as are all humans (speculatively), with the choice to doubt and rebel(freewill). But you have no way of knowing what Adam and Eve's motivation was
Can we agree it wasn’t the motivated by trust in the Spirit of the Living God?
Well, no. God Himself said that eating the fruit made Adam and Eve more like Him
Because God knows when He is naked?
Genesis post-fruit writes:
Note... "...she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings."Genesis pre-fruit writes:
Adam and Eve were not ashamed "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."of their nakedness beforehand. Is God ashamed, even though He has The Knowledge? I agree it made them like God. We know this from scripture.You say “more” like God . I dunno. God has the knowledge, and therefore the choice, of good and evil; yet continuously motivates His choices, shamelessly I imagine, with good . that is, unconditional love. How is that "evil"?
People, although possessing the knowledge of both good and evil,are continually selfish, rarely expressing this most God like trait (unconditional love). Potentially to the point of complete annihilation and extinction. This knowledge hardly seems to make them more like God to me. Many curses ensued Adam and Eve’s choice to eat the fruit . no expressed blessings. It seems they would have enjoyed life with God just fine,along with all things that became cursed, and not hid themselves from Him, had they not erred. Yet without their imperfect choice, the evolution ofthe “first fruits of a new creation” may not have been spawned. Our Perfect God knew this all along, and had a Perfect plan . Ephesians writes: “ . we were also chosen, having been predestined according tothe plan of Him who works out everything to the conformity with the purpose of his will . ” Even though I claim only to be a perfect jackass,and not actually "perfect", and we don’t always agree, know this: I love you (and I don’t even want your Bud Light!!) Curious . In Genesis 3:8, what emotion would you speculate caused the two lovebirds to “hide themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.”? Would you agree it was suddenly their own feelings of guilt, which separate them from God? Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
You say "doubt" and "rebel" as if they were bad things. If free will is a good thing, why do you suggest that the first time it was exercised it was bad?
No, no, no . I don’t imply freewill to be evil by any means; I can name my dog, feed the poor, and love my neighbors as myself, of my own freewill. These things are not bad. And in actuality, this decision of Eve’s, in question, was not the first time freewill was exercised. Adam used his freewill to give names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field. But,"symbolically", this is the first time it was exercised and it led to a choice that led to shame, Genesis writes:
a scroll full of curses, pre-fruit . “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” . post-fruit . she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.Genesis writes:
God to be “sad“, “God said to the serpent . “Cursed are you more than all cattle . On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel“ . To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children“ . to Adam He said . “Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life...thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field . By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground . ””etc.,etc.,Genesis writes:
etc.,etc..
The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain. As I already said, they had no reason to "trust" anybody. They had no reason to choose God over the snake.
Eve was created after all other things,and was given no authority in the Earth. She may have had no reason, providing she felt slighted with her provision from Adam and God, and lied about being deceived. But is that speculation . Adam, on the other hand, had, literally, every reason in the world to trust God. The snake never did squat for him. God gave him all his hearts desires; even his honey bun, Eve, a "helper suitable for him", when one could not be found. He continously met his every need. Adam had excellent reasons to trust God, and so do we. "Ashamed of their nakedness" indicates something like "aware of their vulnerability". Before they knew good and evil, they knew nothing about threats to their safety.
"Ashamed of their nakedness" indicates a loss of innocence or trust.By talking about God's nakedness, are you suggesting that He was vulnerable too? This is what our spirits experience at the age of accountability. I am suggesting God is “innocent”, by referring to His innocence. Without this God breathed innocence, or trust, we cannot be in God’s Presence, save for His Grace . Mark writes:
Truly I say to you, whoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter into it.They were created in God's image. God said, "the man is become as one of us." I don't see how that "becoming" could mean anything else than becoming more.
I could entertain the idea of “more Godlike”If your not careful with this it’s kinda like saying , “ Because I give my 11 yr. old $30,000 worth of Snap-On tools, complete with roller bearing slides in the chest, he is more like an A.S.E. certified mechanic.” Or “Because my deceased Grandfather left my Grandma his woodworking shop, she is more like a cabinet maker.” Although it brings them slightly closer to the title, it doesn’t change the fact that they don’t know how to use the tools and their probably gonna hurt themselves. Hopefully, we could agree it didn’t actually make them equal to God.
That "unconditional love" thing is not in evidence here. You'd be hard pressed to find it in Genesis.
Fair enough,but God’s been trying to convey this of his character to people, with the imitation thereof for the purpose of being “Godlike”, for quite some time. Agape love is scattered all over the Good Book. Either people aren’t getting’ it, or they just choose not to. . we don't like snakes. It's not as if there really was One Choice and they screwed it up. The story is about all the choices we make and about the consequences of screwing up. Yes, the ability to make our own choices, for better or for worse, does make us more Godlike.
Snakes don’t bother me so much.The story definitely represents why it is important to trust God’s Word. Eventually, some people will wind up even more Godlike, if they’re careful. For future reference, I consider the idea of "perfection" - God's or otherwise - to be (almost) perfectly worthless.
I’ll make a note.
Again, it wasn't an event. It's a story about how we grow up and learn that evil things can hurt us.
Yur no fun .
Ringo writes: In reference to Genesis 3:8 No. I don't know how you get "separate them from God" “heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day” because they realized they were in God’s peer group. They hid themselves post “screwing up”. They didn’t play hide-n-seek pre “screwing up”. You don’t think this “figurative game of hide-n-seek” may refer to a separation from God’s presence? And why would becoming like God make them feel guilty?
Better yet, why, besides guilt, would they hide,if they were not playing a “figurative game of hide-n-seek”? Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
If that's all you think free will is, I'm not impressed. I think of free will in terms of taking responsibility for our own actions, making our own decisions after carefully (and sometimes accurately) considering the consequences.
I can’t believe your not impressed with selflessly putting another person’s benefactor ahead of my own as an act of freewill. I was gonna own up to it.
Ringo writes: We don't have God putting in a personal appearance to make His claims . As far as Adam knew, it could just as easily have been the snake That's the point of the story, isn't it?
I thought the story depicted how even when people created in the image of God, without the know-how, get into a world of $h*t by not trusting God’s Word and thinking they can perform like Him, God will still maintain their freewill and provide good choices for them to make, and if they make them, they’ll result in Him having mercy and saving their a$$.
When we have the knowledge of good and evil, we are more Godlike, but we still have the consequences of our actions.
We have the consequences of our actions whether we have the knowledge of good and evil or whether we are “more Godlike”. The lovebirds weren’t somehow void of consequence before the fall. The consequences of their actions just weren't cursed. The implication of freewill is not negated by the absence of the knowledge of evil. Why doesn’t it make sense that they could have had multiple non-evil options when faced with a decision before the fall. The result of a choice made without the knowledge of evil would just result in a blessed consequence.
God, presumably, doesn't have to face the consequences of His actions.
If we do and He doesn’t,how does that make us more “Godlike”. That makes us opposite. Kinda like,we're mortal, and God's immortal. What makes you think the "God is love" angle is the "right" message to extract from The Book, anyway
Jesus writes:
Honestly, it took me a long time to come to this conclusion, and I’m not so great at it yet, but I'm am getting better. Nevertheless, it is branded in my heart.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments. Bailey writes:
The (early Genesis) story definitely represents why it is important to trust God’s Word.Ringo writes:
To trust God’s Word is to questioning conventional wisdom. The wisdom of the Knowledge of Good and evil..
I'm saying just the opposite - that Adam and Eve became more Godlike by making their own choice, by questioning the conventional wisdom. Do you have anything to back up your assertion?
I’m assuming you referring to why it is important to trust the Word of the Spirit of God’s as opposed to that of a symbolic “talking snake”.
Colossians 2:8 writes:
The basic principals of this world are founded in the knowledge of Good and evil.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow an deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. God indicated pretty plainly that they became closer to Him, not farther. I'll also repeat that they recognized their vulnerability, which is inherent in making their own choices.
Let me get this straight . They became closer to Him, not farther and in doing so hid farther from his presence? it was a figurative realization of their mortality
Realizing your dying equated to hiding from God. Quite a stretch for me. I can’t always allegorize that well.
Why would becoming like God make them feel guilty
I never stated this, I think you did.But I’ll give it whack. After the institution and realization of their mortality, they realized they “screwed up"? No...that not it. After the institution and realization of their mortality, they realized they were “more Godlike”? Wait...I thought "more Godlike" was to be immortal and not "screw up". I give up. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
You can’t unravel a sweater by knitting a different one.
We were established as “more Godlike” than all other implied creation already by being created “in God’s image” from the “beginning“. I understand you don’t subscribe to a “standard dogma”, in terms of religion and I don’t either. You do have a dogma of your very own, but your not alone. Curious . does the “Garden of Eden” symbolize something other than God’s Presence to you? How so? The snake put in a personal appearance too. How was Adam supposed to assess their relative merits?
Simply by selecting his actions based on trust in God”s Word, rather than acting on his doubt of God”s Word. Remember, we’re created with the ability to doubt, but we have freewill not to act on it.
How can you say "without the know-how" when it's about getting the know-how?
We acquired the “knowledge of good and evil”, without the knowledge to differentiate them. An acquired knowledge is only useful when combined with the wisdom of how to use it; not by the acquisition of said knowledge.Your sig. almost substantiates this; “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”. Knowledge can lead to wisdom, but is not conceived with wisdom. I would agree more that “The knowledge of Faith moves mountains, but only wisdom moves them to the right place” I proposed, we were already established as “more Godlike” than all other implied creation by being the only thing created “in his image” from “the “beginning“. We were created with all the knowledge, and wisdom to utilize it, that we needed to exist “more Godlike”. We didn’t need the acquisition of the “knowledge of good and evil” to become “more Godlike“. We already were more Godlike than anything in creation. How can you talk about free will when the only "right" choice is blind obedience?
You imply freewill is established only when we can act on the choice to doubt God. Or, “if we cannot act on our choice to doubt God we have no freewill“. I propose we can doubt God according to our freewill and not act on that doubt, all the while maintaining our freewill.
Well, they didn't have multiple options .
You’ve implied freewill is achieved only by acting on our doubt in God (partaking in the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in this case), yet, in this story Adam is told “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely”. “Any tree” establishes choices, hence, “freewill“. “May eat freely” equates to without consequence. Here “May eat freely” (freewill) is equated to without “death” (mortality), being “sent out from the garden of Eden” (separation from God’s Presence), “hiding themselves from the presence of the God” (guilt).I impose they were given “freewill” and none of the plethora of choices provided, selection after selection through all their Godlike, immortal, guilt free days walking with God would achieve them “death” (mortality), being “sent out from the garden of Eden” (separation from God’s Presence), or “hiding themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden“ (guilt); All but one choice; not doubting, but rather acting on the doubt they had in God. In the story, my proposed "right" choice is Trust in God blindly, with the benefactor being a clear conscience, immortality, and communion with God (all while maintaining our Godliness). Yours seems to be act on the choice we have to doubt God, with the benefactor being guilt, mortality and separation from God (with an acquisition of “more Godlikeness“). . . get the knowledge or remain ignorant, grow up or remain immature.
Act on trust or act on doubt, live or die, remain innocent or become corruptible.
How can you talk about mercy when God is the one who is supposedly causing the consequences?
This is like equating that legislator’s passing laws, or Judge Judy, is causing the actions of those on trial. If you choose to break the Law, you should bear the consequence. Be responsible. Law is upheld spiritually in Heaven as well as on Earth. Sin is the equivalent to breaking God’s law. Nobody else should assume responsibility for your actions.Yet, through God’s mercy, he will do just this for people. That's not the part that makes us more Godlike
Then what is; mortality, guilt, or the lack of wisdom on how to utilize the knowledge of good and evil?
I asked you how you got to that conclusion . . . ..you attribute it to a "branding", presumably by some external entity.
Not so.I answered this. I chose not to act on my understanding of the knowledge of good and evil, the basic principles of this world (See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow an deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ) and chose to not act on my doubt of scripture (God’s Word) that states Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments. These choices resulted in that conclusion. I take responsibility for them But the knowledge of good and evil is something we got from God, something that makes us like Him
Your dogma aside, again, I ask; How does mortality, guilt, or the lack of wisdom on how to utilize the knowledge of good and evil make us more like God?
I'm talking about using that knowledge, like God uses His knowledge, instead of blindly trusting
It appears your choosing blind faith in contradictory dogma? God has Wisdom to use his knowledge, we are given that same knowledge (of good and evil), without the wisdom to use it helpfully.
Blind trust is the childlike state that Adam and Eve left when they became like God.
Blind trust is the childlike state that allowed Adam and Eve in God’s presence(the garden of Eden). It is what allows anyone in the presence of God. Truly I say to you, whoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter into it. One more time, it was God Himself who said they had become like Him. That's the important point. The hiding can not contradict that point from God's own lips.
Again, I ask; How does mortality, guilt, or the lack of wisdom on how to utilize the knowledge of good and evil make us more like God?We were already established as “more Godlike” than all other implied creation by being the only thing created “in his image” from “the “beginning“. We already were “more Godlike”, as you say, than anything in creation. With their new-found knowledge of good and evil, they were faced with the decision of who to trust: God or the snake. They had the decision who to trust since they encountered the ”snake”, before they acted on their choice to doubt God. With their new-found knowledge of good and evil, they were faced with a burden of possessing a trait they didn’t understand how to use wisely. Is it this burden (lack of wisdom) that, to you, bolsters they were more Godlike, after the acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil, as opposed to before the acquisition, when they were already “more Godlike” than anything in creation.
Notice that God made clothes for them
This concludes nothing.I noticed they made coverings themselves with figs first, as well . I’m sure this knowledge of good and evil they acquired would have eventually resulted towards an evolution of not so rudimentary clothing,Adam-crumblie & Fig perhaps, had God not intervened. And yet you manage to swallow far-fetched dogma with no effort at all.
Don’t cut yourself short, you don’t do so bad yourself . .Ringo writes: un verbatim . mortality, guilt, lack of wisdom on how to utilize the knowledge of good and evil makes us more like God. I'm asking where you get guilt and separation from that.
I don’t.I get it symbolically by their reaction to the consequences they received after the acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil; being “sent out from the garden of Eden” (separation from God’s Presence), “hiding themselves from the presence of the God” (guilt). Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Why should the Garden of Eden be anything more than the setting of the story?
I didn’t know if you believed in gardens .
You're getting ahead of yourself. I'm asking you why Adam should have trusted God's word
Why is the sky blue? Faith and blind trust don’t question why.God and the lovebirds lived in community together, not Eve and the “talking snake”. The consequences of trusting God and living in community with Him thus far served them well. The knowledge of good and evil is the ability to differentiate them. What else could it be?
If you never had citrus fruit and I give you a bowl of lemons and oranges, could you tell them apart by me saying “Here”s a bowl of lemons and oranges“.
"More Godlike" doesn't mean in comparison to any other animal. It means more Godlike than we were before.
Why do you suppose he restricted the Tree of Life if it was good to become “more Godlike”?
We can act or not act. That's free will
She didn’t have to eat from that tree to be Godlike or confirm her freewill?
For each tree, there was the option of eat or don't eat. The only tree where free will was significant was the one where eating had consequences
Not just “consequences”, sorrowful consequences.So by your logic freewill is only significant or authentic when it produces consequences that lead to grief and sorrow? Why would you assume that we can have a clear conscience only by blind obedience?
I never stated that.
You keep ignoring what God Himself said. They became like Him when they ate from the tree. That could only improve their communion with Him
Kinda like “Distance makes the heart grow fonder”?Not living in community with God improved their communion with Him? choice not acted on is not a real choice
The choice to not act is not a real choice?But some people would say these types of choices keep them out of jail. This is fitting in nicely with your “Not living in community with God improved their communion with Him” and “Freewill is only significant or authentic when it produces consequences that lead to grief and sorrow” dogma. have asked you more than once: Why would we feel guilt from using our free will?
By causing grief to those who live in our community.Unless we are completely selfish. Does this selfishness your implying cause us to be "more Godlike"? We gain wisdom by making our own choices (and acting on them)
So you agree good and evil could not be differentiated except by consequence.Doesn’t this contradict your previous theory: “The knowledge of good and evil is the ability to differentiate them”? Which is it that differentiates good and evil: knowledge or consequence? It can’t be both. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Yessir.
True freewill would only happen once a choice became available
Freewill was always there because the choice to obey was always there.
The trick is wanting to obey once you see that you don't have to
You got that right. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Bailey writes:
Any answer is speculative opinion. There is no reductive “binary”, as you would say. God and the lovebirds lived in community together, not Eve and the “talking snake”.Ringo writes: You're just making that up . Why should Adam have trusted God's word?Unless this is leading somewhere it is null; but for the sake of debate: God had numerous interactions with the Adam well before the introduction of the “talking snake”, even if you don’t consider the lovebird’s communion with God living in community with Him. Generally, most people tend to trust those they have a formidable relationship with over a stranger. Again, I speculatively opine, that’s “why”. Since Adam didn’t talk with the snake, but Eve, why do you suppose Adam should have trusted her word, over the word of her (their) Creator. Ringo writes:
Ringo, your favorite verse immediately precedes this restriction. He didn't restrict the Tree of Life. Read Genesis Bailey writes: Take your own advice or...you can argue with God, if you like.This has been overlooked until this point, but it is obviously relevant to the content and context of the story. They did not eat from the Tree of Life and it is the only other tree mentioned by name. The guarding of the Tree of Life was not established until after their choice to eat from the tree of Knowledge. Do you think the fruit from this tree could have also caused them to become "more Godlike"? To eat from the Tree of Life would have yielded immortality and God was OK with that. Apparently, they could have eaten from this tree all along, yet no person can eat from both. The Tree of Life is significant. Please answer the question... Why did God restrict the Tree of Life after after their choice to eat from the tree of Knowledge, if it was good to become “more Godlike”? I said that a choice not acted on is not a real choice. For example, if I "choose" a lemon or an orange from your bowl but don't actuallt take it, I haven't really made a choice. I receive no benefit from either "choice" and nobody knows what "choice" I made.
You certainly do receive a benefit if the fruit is poisonous and you don’t choose it.Unless you consider being poisoned the benefit. Speaking of fruit, if you never had citrus fruit and I give you a bowl of lemons and oranges, how could you tell them apart by the knowledge of me saying “Here”s a bowl of lemons and oranges“. On the other hand, if I choose not to commit a crime, I have chosen a different set of consequences. I receive the benefit. Everybody knows what choice I made.
Very entertaining.How would anybody know what choice you made? Unless you conveyed your intentions of committing the crime to “everybody” it was only a thought. Thank you for your support. Who said anything about causing grief?
God . Moses . Bible? Genesis 6:6 We're talking about Adam and Eve here. They were the community. Their actions had consequences for themselves, not "grief to the community".
They communed with God.Their actions consequentially caused God to be grieved in His heart. Their actions consequentially caused them to be ashamed in their hearts One more time, it was God Himself who said they had become like Him. That's the important point. The hiding can not contradict that point from God's own lips . .And let me remind you again, it was god who said they became more Godlike. You can argue with Him if you like
Please don’t dodge.I’m not debating whether it was Elohim who said they became “more godlike”. That’s clearly stated. Genesis 3:22 It states they became “like one of us”, which we already were, “knowing good and evil“ . not good from evil. I propose Elohim had the existing ability to differentiate good from evil. They had to learn it consequentially, which infers quite a difference in character and likeness. Ringo writes:
Again, how does this not contradict your previous theory: “The knowledge of good and evil is the ability to differentiate them”? We gain wisdom by making our own choices (and acting on them)
Bailey writes: So you agree good and evil could not be differentiated except by consequence. I do not come from a religious background and I’ve rarely ever stepped in a church. I am openly admitting I don’t know my a$$ from a hole in the ground, but it would appear that Elohim did not think it a good thing that they/we became “more godlike”.I am asking you to support your assertion that is was not perceived as a bad thing to Elohim that they became “more godlike” in the context of the story.
Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
The only recorded interaction between God and Adam before the incident
Genesis 2:7,15,16,19
They might have been eating from it or they might not have.
No. If they ate from it they’d have been immortal.Since they died, they didn’t. Very simple. Study. Ask God. Apparently, He didn't want them to be too Godlike.
That’s your response?Seriously? How could you know it was poisonous if you didn't choose it? You have to choose something or you'll starve to death.
But they were told the Tree of Knowledge was poisonous. God had made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground - tree that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. They weren’t in any danger of starving.
If Adam and Eve had never had to make a decision before and they were given a choice of God or snake, how could they tell them apart?
So after they ate the fruit they could tell when someone was lying to them? Did you inherit this trait . it must have skipped me? Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
Chapter and verse? As far as I can see, their actions caused God to be worried that they were becoming too much like Him.
It’s listed in the post.I’ve answered all your questions. Stop dodging please. Who cares what God thought? I'm saying that it was a good thing for them to be more like God. If He didn't like it, boo hoo, but it was a step up for them.
Ringo, you should be ashamed you lil” Godhead.I wonder if they thought it was a step up? They must’ve, they were ashamed too. I don't "suppose
You suppose as much as any of us, you bible studier, you.
The rest of your questions miss the point entirely.
I’ll sleep well knowing you can’t provide any evidence for your assertions.Anyone wanna play dodge ball? God said that eating the fruit made Adam and Eve like Him. If we are going to assume that "God is good", we have to conclude that being like Him is a good thing.
Being like God is a “good” thing. We were created “in his image” after all, right.And I suppose by the gift of death and abundance of joyous curses that were decreed, eating from the Tree of Knowledge must be a good thing too. Not. If the sarcasm gets to you, let me know. I'll tone it down.It’s been fun!! I like you. You make me think. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
What reason did Adam and Eve have to trust God?
You sonsa bych!! I see it now. They had no reason!! This whole occurrence of history which started consequentially with Adam and Eve’s lack of faith is designed to reveal why it is important to have faith (believing in something unproved). Through the process that began in Genesis and culminates in the prophecies yet to be fulfilled in Revelation, we are shown why it is important to trust Elohim's Word instead of "talking snakes" (or presumably any creation lesser than God), even if we have no reason. Consequentially, once we”re with the Father our spirits will have a reason. Elohim . the God/man with a plan. Edited by Bailey, : Punct. Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
The story is not just a mere occurence of history. It's about all of us.
Yessir
It's about how we all must learn to differentiate good from evil and how we all face the consequences of our decisions.
I like what yur sayin', but let’s put a jumpsuit on the poor lil’ Tree of Life that’s constantly getting benched. For the sake of debate let’s give it some sort of representation. For instance, let’s say it represents the mystery of “Godliness” as opposed to the likeness of a God (form of Godliness). Then, let’s take it a step further. It's about how we all must learn to differentiate good and evil, the attainable form of Godliness, from the incomprehensible mystery of “Godliness” that gives Life and how we all face the consequences of our decisions.
So you can't say that "they" had no reason to blindly trust God but "we" do. We are them
We are them now, not then.
You're blaming the poor snake for things done in other books that have nothing to do with him.
Are you kidding. Everything has do with him. He put himself right in the mix. Although, realistically, everybody is responsible for their own choices in those other books. After all, they didn’t have to choose The Way of the Serpent.
The point of the story is that the decision is ours whether to believe a snake or a guy who claims to be God.
What if any guy who claims to be God is a snake? This could turn into a great biblical paradox. Duality killer possibly. Since it'll transfer nicely, and maintain on topic for the most part, you can razz me In The Center Of The Garden if you want... Mercy Trumps Judgement, Love Weary
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4400 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
cause he'll punish us if we don't? C'mon Elohim didn't say "I'll kill you". He said "You'll die" You guys...
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