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Author
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Topic: The First Questions In The Bible
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 72 of 161 (417797)
08-24-2007 5:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Bailey
08-24-2007 4:42 PM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: The spiritual death occured when we removed ourselves from God's absolute wisdom... You keep saying that. Yet you run away from the fact that God Himself acknowledged that Adam and Eve had become more like Him, not less. Debate in good faith. Address the issue or drop your claims about "removing ourselves".
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 4:42 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 73 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 5:14 PM | | ringo has not replied | | | Message 77 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 7:30 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 78 of 161 (417822)
08-24-2007 7:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Bailey
08-24-2007 7:30 PM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self. Where do you get that from the text? What does self have to do with it?
Elohim's omnipotence lends to the notion that He is not in any process of differentiation. There is nothing in the story about any "process of differentiation". It's about the ability to differentiate good and evil. Adam and Eve obtained the ability immediately when they ate the fruit. There was no "process".
Eve gave Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she did not tell him what it was. If she did he wouldn't have eaten it. Empty speculation. In Bible Study, kindly stick to what the Bible says. Don't make it up as you go along. (By the way, why do you keep calling God "Elohim"?)
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 7:30 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 8:53 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 84 of 161 (417835)
08-24-2007 9:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Bailey
08-24-2007 8:53 PM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil. Sure:
quote:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
See any sign of a time delay there?
Please show where Adam, Eve, Cain, or Abel knew whether their actions were wrong. Sure:
quote:
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
They tried to "cover up" - a sure sign that they knew they had done wrong.
Please, by all means, provide me the verse that shows Eve specified to Adam that this was the "forbidden" fruit from the tree of knowledge. Sure:
quote:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
He was "with her" when she took the fruit. The story is pretty plain.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 8:53 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 9:53 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 88 of 161 (417840)
08-24-2007 10:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Bailey
08-24-2007 9:53 PM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: I see where Adam and Eve knew they were naked. Are you infering it is evil to be naked? I'm pointing out that "their eyes were opened" immediately when they ate the fruit. They knew the difference between good and evil. I haven't said anything about what is evil. Now it's your turn. Show us where it says the knowledge of good and evil is a "process".
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 9:53 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 1:40 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 96 of 161 (417874)
08-25-2007 1:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Bailey
08-25-2007 1:16 AM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: I might not be a "Christian", but I am literate. No, you're really not.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 1:16 AM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 98 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 1:41 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 99 of 161 (417877)
08-25-2007 1:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 97 by Bailey
08-25-2007 1:40 AM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: What I would like to know is how you connect being perceived naked to being good...or evil for that matter? I have not suggested any such connection. "Their eyes were opened" means they learned something. What they learned was the difference between good and evil.
Someone actually disagrees that the ability to differentiate things (ex. "good from evil") is honed by a process of experience? There is no "process of experience" in the Adam and Eve story. If there was one, you'd have been able to quote the verses by now.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 1:40 AM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 3:35 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 100 of 161 (417878)
08-25-2007 2:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by Bailey
08-25-2007 1:41 AM
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Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes: What does any of this have to do with any of the first questions ever asked in the Bible, if it's significant that the serpent was allowed to ask the first question, whether or not we were meant to question God from the very first day, or whether the entire scenario meant to happen? We've been discussing "whether or not we were meant to question God from the very first day" this whole time. God gave us free will because He wanted us to use it. He gave Adam and Eve the oppurtunity to question His word and compare it to the word of the snake. He said Himself that by using their free will they became more like Him. So, yes, we were meant to question God from the very first day.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 1:41 AM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 102 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 4:49 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 104 of 161 (417906)
08-25-2007 10:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 101 by Bailey
08-25-2007 3:35 AM
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Bailey writes: They couldn't have learned anything without a basis for what was good or evil. There's nothing in the story about what is good or evil. There is no "basis" for what is good or evil mentioned in the story.
... the ability to differentiate good and evil is not magical, but rather honed through experiences. We're talking about Adam and Eve here. According to the story, it certainly was magical for them.
You are making a huge assumption something was differentiated between good and evil after the fruit of knowledge incident and making a huge assumption that Adam or Eve actually learned anything. I'm just looking at exactly what the story says: They ate the fruit. Their eyes were opened.
I'm sorry your magical equation does not align with logic or Scripture. Then why don't you show some scripture?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 3:35 AM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 105 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 5:11 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 107 of 161 (417981)
08-25-2007 6:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 105 by Bailey
08-25-2007 5:11 PM
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Re: The Magical Fruit...the more ya eat the more ya toot
Bailey writes: We can’t assume they learned anything about good or evil... We don't have to assume anything. It says quite plainly that they got the knowledge of good and evil from eating the fruit.
... or whether or not they knew snakes could talk. They knew snakes could talk because the snake talked to them.
If you don't believe in talking devil serpents, why would you believe in "magical fruit". It has nothing to do with what you believe. In the story, the snake can talk and the fruit is magic. Period. (Of course, there is no "devil" in the story at all.) If you don't believe those things are literally true, then you understand that the story is just a story. But you can't change the whole story around to suit yourself just because it isn't literally true.
If knowledge wasn’t “magically” embedded in their skulls they would have to obtain it in some other fashion. But it was embedded magically, as the story plainly says: They ate the fruit, they got the knowledge.
Again, perhaps through life experiences not a magic fruit. I quoted the verses for you. There was no time delay between eating the fruit and obtaining the knowledge, no time for "life experience". I asked you to quote scripture to back up your notion that there was a "process" in learning the difference between good and evil, that Adam and Eve had "life experience" and not a magical impartation. I didn't ask for every verse you could find about good and evil. The topic is about the questions asked in the first few chapters of Genesis. You and I have been discussing whether or not Adam and Eve were right to question God, whether or not that was His intention. The question of what "is" good or evil is not relevant. The question we're discussing is whether or not God wanted/expected Adam and Eve to choose the knowledge of good and evil.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 105 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 5:11 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 109 by Bailey, posted 08-26-2007 1:59 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 135 of 161 (419139)
09-01-2007 9:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Rob
09-01-2007 2:07 AM
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Rob writes: quote:
The fact is we do question, we always have and, hopefully, we always will.
Why? What are we looking for? And what were we questioning? Thanks for illustrating my point.
Why would a human being think of doing something that He (or she) doesn't need or want to think about in the first place.... I didn't say he (or she) would. I said, "Thinking is a good thing." I didn't say that all thoughts are equally good. Thinking is necessary to separate the good from the bad.
For arguments sake, if humanity was in fact created good by God's influence... then how would we explain our badness unless there was some other influencing factor other than God? If we were created good, there would be no need for thought at all. The reason we can recognize "badness" in ourselves is because we question what is good and what is bad.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Rob, posted 09-01-2007 2:07 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by Rob, posted 09-01-2007 10:31 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 144 of 161 (419209)
09-01-2007 2:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 136 by Rob
09-01-2007 10:31 AM
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Rob writes: So we (the thinker) have to choose between the angel whispering in one ear, and the devil in the other? Or do we create or own thoughts? If you want to listen to angels or devils, that's your lookout. An important question would be, "Is it an angel or a devil posing as an angel?" In the end, though, you have to create your own decisions based on the inputs you have.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by Rob, posted 09-01-2007 10:31 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 145 by Rob, posted 09-01-2007 3:22 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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arachnophilia writes: it doesn't "i'll make childbirth hurt more" it says "i'll make your life hurt more.... Either way, it's interesting to note that the emphasis is on "more". Pain was "increased" or "multiplied" - it wasn't introduced. The knowledge of good and evil includes the good and evil sides of pain: Pain tells us there's a problem but too much pain can be a bad thing. An increase in knowledge goes hand in hand with an increase in pain. We become more aware of pain, especially the pain of others. So, questioning God led to empathy, a supposedly Godlike quality. 
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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