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Author | Topic: Converting raw energy into biological energy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
I was referring to the first forms (their ancestors) that are theorized.
Why do you assume they existed? We're talking about abiogenesis here... how any of you missed that in the OP is beyond me. Perhpas I should have used the word 'Abiogenesis'. All of the comments from molbiogirl , Doddy, and Matt P that I referred to in the OP were taken from abiogenesis threads. Sorry for any confusion. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Chiroptera:
it is an assumption (or conclusion) that could be shown to be wrong if there were any evidence to the contrary. There is... it's called the design inference. But I am here trying mostly to point to the complete void of explanation for the appearence of the first living cell because of it's predependance upon energy in a biologically useable form.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
2) We have their fossil remains, called "stromolites." So stromolites were the first living cell?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Dr. Jones :
An inference is not evidence, it's (wait for it).... an Inference! That's what much of science is yes. The fact is, that we know and have evidence that intelligence can design systems and build them. So we infer design elsewhere especially considering the immense (in fact incomprehensible) complexity of living organisms. Quaternary digital codes that instruct the building of chloroplasts don't just pop out of chemical soups when you add light. That's what the evidence and the research shows...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Chirptera:
I doubt that there is a complete void. But the point still stands: even if science does not yet know the answer to the question, how does "it must have been a designer!" become a reasonable conclusion? It's a good point... But we could just as easily ask why 'there must not have been' is a reasonable conclusion? Why not consider all the options... both design and material?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Rahvin:
You realize that abiogenesis is not the same as the origin of photosynthesis, right? Yes, if you go back and read the OP you will see: Molbiogirl and Doddy were both suggesting (presupposing) that biological function had a precursor to fermentation, photosynthesis and respiration. But there is no such precursor found in the fossil record or anywhere else that I am aware of. Crash is the one who jumped on the photopynthesis bit.. I think everyone needs to go back and read the OP. Relax, take a breath, and let it sink in...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
jar:
But you have been given links to at least one example of a creature that directly converts water to usable energy from just the natural decay of uranium in rocks. The energy source is not the issue jar. Do you understand? This organism is still dependant upon ATP. It converts energy of one kind into ATP. How do we account for metabolism to begin with? You're still missing the point! How are energy conversion sytems built when the converted energy needed to build them (ATP) has not yet been converted? How is ATP made? You boys (and girls) are assuming the existence of the very thing your trying to explain. ATP is not someting that exists naturally (ie. chemically). It is converted by biological processes (factories / machines). But in turn, biological processes cannot exist until ATP is present to build them. We've got a problem...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Crash:
Bacteria that live near deep-sea ocean vents survive off of raw mineral materials and form the basis of an entire ecosystem that never sees the light of the sun. ATP They use ATP.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Crash:
The idea that you can't form ADP or ATP inorganically? Nothing could be further from the truth, I assure you. Don't assure me... Show me... Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Thanks Percy and molbiogirl... my head is spinning... Have a barbeque to go to.... Can't go on...
I am however looking forward to engaging calm and reasoned discussions when I get my concentration back. At the moment, I feel I am in the middle of some great and disastrous fillabuster. I'll respond later...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
http://EvC Forum: Converting raw energy into biological energy -->EvC Forum: Converting raw energy into biological energy
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Crash:
With my digital internet chemistry set? Certainly there is an article on the subject you could post a link to... Or... not! It's a real problem Crash... don't get so wound up. We can look at it objectively together if we try.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Chiroptera:
Well, you don't have to respond to each and every post. And you certainly don't have to respond to each and every post within three minutes after they are posted. Thanks...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Let's take a day or so to think and settle down.
Crash: And let me remind you again - biochemists aren't $%^&* morons, so the idea that they've never thought of how early organisms would come to have an energy economy based on phosphating ADP is just ludicrous on its face. As I said in the Op: I think that some of you have simply moved past the evidence and take for granted that it is possible based upon your 'methodological naturalist' bias. Molbiogirl spoke of a theoretical explanation for the problem of energy conversion. And I must confess that it is probably internally coherent, but there is no external evidence to support or test it. I want to discuss the subject.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
molbiogirl:
Rob, you know perfectly well there is an explanation at http://EvC Forum: How to make a ribozyme (using abiotic starting compounds) -->EvC Forum: How to make a ribozyme (using abiotic starting compounds). You're not serious are you? Doddy could not have made it more clear that his formula was completely theoretical. Feel free to read through that whole thread again if you want... I found Doddy to be very reasonable. he seems to understand the questions I am asking and their relevance, even though he believes that there is a natural explanation. I'd love to have him participate in these dicussions. molbiogirl: Do you want to go over the ATP question again? Or do you want to discuss pre biotic chemistry in general? You need to clarify your question. Which of these steps ... simple chemicals --> basic building blocks --> catalytic polymers + abiotic metabolism pre-RNA world --> RNA world --> DNA/protein world ... do you want to discuss? I am questioning the entire premise... What catalytic polymers? What abiotic metabolism? What RNA world? You act as though these things are realities... they are assumed theoretical explanations for what actually exists today. The evidence is the fossil record and living species, neither of which give any indication at all of the entities mentioned above existing in any known state other than being completely dependant upon a larger biological system in which they are only a part.
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