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Author | Topic: Converting raw energy into biological energy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
molbiogirl:
I would remind you that a virus is nothing more than a tiny package of DNA encapsulated in an envelope. And what use is a virus without a whole organism (or cell) with which it can replicate?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Chiroptera:
What you're doing is burying the public in exclamations of incredulity and assertians of insurmountable problems. No, I'm reminding you of that facthere. It's still a highly theoretical excercise at this point (thank you Leslie Orgel). As I said in the OP some of you have moved well beyond the evidence. I'm not the one taching in classrooms and saturating the public market with exagerations of theoritical maybe's and models of possibility and selling it as fact by shear repetition of the term evolution, millions of years et al. My own kids have books for preschoolers that talk constantly of evolution. You guys have the PR battle locked down tight! Good for you... I talk to people about this subject you know... and to question evolution almost immediately makes me a complete nut job in most minds (even Christians). Where are you coming from?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Doddy:
Rob, care to tell me how all the water gets up on top of the mountains for it to run back down again in a river? Evaporation and convection... Doddy: You know, Rob, that it has also yet to be shown that there is an intelligence elsewhere. Has the discovery of the quaternary digital code called DNA changed anything? And I mean one that actually corrosponds to a given organism and functions as a whole system... DNA, RNA, ATP, ADP, etc do not an organism make... It's a whole system. What is the smallest number of components known in the smallest living, autonomous, and self replicating life form?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Dr. Jones:
So what? you've been told multiple times before that science doesn't "prove" anything, science is tentative and always will be. Now there's a comment you won't hear on the Discovery Channel... Actually theory is tentative... emperical evidence can prove quite a bit. But I wonder if Einstein and Openheimer would have appriciated that comment of yours after the bomb worked? Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
molbiogirl:
Hardly the millions of components you seem to think necessary for an "organism". Yes... my own conscious was convicting me of possible exageration. So, as I asked Doddy, what is the smallest number of parts needed for a self replicating, autonomous organism (bacteria)?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Chiroptera:
That's not moving "beyond the evidence" -- in fact, "moving beyond the evidence" would be jumping to the conclusion that "God must have done it!" despite the utter lack of evidence for such a conclusion. There is tremendous evidence for the design inference. Intelligence can create all kinds of languages and codes, most importantly the digital ones. If SETI researchers received a particular kind of code, would you agree with them that it proved intelligence even though we had not witnessed the intelligence physically? You guys keep ignoring the power of this argument. It is emperical. Not in the case of extraterrestrial contact of course, but in terms of intelligent human languages. You need to watch clip 6 and 7 here: Abiogenesis Scroll down to the man writing on the chaulkboard, then click the play button on the YouTube link. As soon as the frist clip is done playing, click the menu button in the lower left hand corner. Then click on clip 7. Watch all 7 clips if you want the full context. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Chiroptera:
Because it is a dumb argument. DNA is not a code in the same sense that language is, nor is it a language. The whole argument now falls flat. Explain the difference for us dummies... but you may want to do it here: http://EvC Forum: The "Digital Code" of DNA -->EvC Forum: The "Digital Code" of DNA Or you could point to your participation in the given thread.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Rob: You guys keep ignoring the power of this argument. Chiroptera: Because it is a dumb argument. So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
I see immediate problems with your syllogism, but the problem is in the way you state it. Anyway, take it to the other thread please.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Rob: So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence? Sidelined: Prime numbers. I've heard that too... Can we discuss the properties of prime numbers that make them good candidates for intelligence and compare that with DNA? Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Thanks molbiogirl... the article I linked in the OP can claim it is inevitable all it wants. I got a laugh out of it personally... and I only used it to show that "A metabolism that extracts raw materials from the environment as food and then changes it into energy." is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome.
You act like it's already been done from a to z. And so do they... The best part is that if they do, they'll be waiting for natural selection to take over, though they admit it will be a feat to even keep it alive. Let's assume they do it... it'll be a hoot to watch biochemical engineers fool the public into believing that they've proved life doesn't need intelligent guidance. Actually, it won't be funny at all... Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Doddy:
Intelligent forces? No... And neither has convection or evaporation been shown to contribute to the arrival of life, though it is postulated to have happened is some manner by all sorts of models. A model developed by intelligent agents is not an organism that is testable as proof of unintelligent guidance. Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
jar:
If any natural method of creating the code can be demonstrated, then it must be listed as probably NOT from an intelligence. Well, you can make a DNA sequence in a lab jar... Behe says in 'Darwins Black Box' that "Any undergraduate can read the instruction manual and prouduce a long piece of DNA -perhpas the gene coding for a known protein- in a day or two". But that really only shows intelligent design. You do think biochemists are intelligent don't you? Behe says, "Making the molecules of life by chemical processes outside of a cell is actually rather easy. Any competent chemist can buy some chemicals from a supply company, weigh them in the correct proportion, dissolve them in an appropriate solvent, heat them in a flask for a predetermined amount of time, and purify the desired chemical produce away from unwanted chemicals produced by side reactions . Most readers will quickly see the problem. There were no chemists four billion years ago. Neither were there any chemical supply houses, distillation flasks, nor any of the many other devices that the modern chemist uses daily in his or her laboratory, and which are necessary to get good results . " Behe goes on to say, "As an analogy, suppose a famous chef said that random natural processes could produce a chocolate cake. In his effort to prove it, we would not begrudge him taking whole plants - including wheat, cacao, and sugar cane - and placing them near a hot spring, in the hope that the heated water would extract the right materials and cook them. But we would become a little wary if the chef bought refined flour, cocoa, and sugar at the store, saying that he didn't have time to wait for the hot water to extract the components from the plants. We would shake our heads if he then switched his experiment from a hot spring to an electric oven, to "speed things up." And we would walk away if he then measured the amounts of the components carefully, mixed them in a bowl, placed them in a pan, and baked them in his oven. The results would have nothing to do with his original idea that natural processes could produce a cake" (Darwins Black Box pp. 168-169). You can also make a coded radio message and send it into outer space. But that really only shows intelligent design. jar: It would have to be a code that could not be explained by any natural process. Even then, it would only be accepted as possibly sent by intelligence. Tell that to the people funding SETI... Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Doddy:
But you acknowledge, Rob, that convection and evaporation can get water to the top of a hill? Without an intelligent pump? It addresses the thermodynamics example you brought up earlier, not life. It depends on the state of the water is all. You did explain well that water can be moved uphill in the form of vapor. I was referring to significant concentrations of water, not water vapor.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5880 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
molbiogirl:
Oh. So it's easy now. What was with all the bitching and moaning upthread then? Worth every moment... but I have lost perspective a time or two.
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