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Author
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Topic: Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill? Sequal Thread
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Supposed Downward Trends
PurpleDawn, you might be interested in checking out the work of Dr Russell Blaylock. He is a neurosurgeon, a naturopath, and a contributor to the Mercola site. I've been reading an article by him about vaccinations, and it brings up a number of interesting points. Chiefly, it addresses your point that a number of seemingly-innocuous factors in the environment, in our food, etc -- as well as substances in vaccines -- can work in synergy to produce illness. Clinical studies do not tend to test the effects of more than one substance at a time. He also talks about something called bystander damage, where a prolonged immune system response can destroy healthy surrounding cells. Vaccine adjuvants can trigger this kind of prolonged response. We've been talking about adjuvants here, such as mercury, aluminum and antifreeze, and I didn't fully understand what they do. Part of the reason why they are present is to help provoke an immune response. They are also directly toxic to the brain. You can find the article here. It talks a lot about possible contributing factors to Gulf War Syndrome. Interestingly, one factor he points out is that soldiers were drinking diet soda out of aluminum cans in 120-degree temperatures, and that these cans had been stored for weeks at a time. Drinking from an aluminum can is bad enough, but aspartame breaks down at 86 degrees; and what it breaks down into is formaldehyde and diketopiperazine, a brain tumor agent. Who thinks to look for factors such as this?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 10-12-2007 9:43 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: For the FIFTH time...
This is one organisation of which he is a member. I am not aware of his level of participation in the society, but his research and publications are all in the areas of nutritional medicine and vaccinations. I have never seen any hint of right-wing extremism in what I've read from him. In fact if Quackwatch are after him it's a good bet that big pharma thinks it's worth taking the time and effort to smear him in some way. That's what Barrett and his parrots do. I thought this was a well written, thought provoking article. But if you don't want to have a glance that's not a problem, I was flagging it up for PurpleDawn.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 10-12-2007 2:59 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Blaylock
You seem to be declaring "guilty by association." I haven't seen any evidence that he's written anything about right-wing nuttery or that he supports it. What I can understand is his membership in a group that is anti-establishment. The establishment hates him. Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by molbiogirl, posted 10-12-2007 4:05 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Blaylock
There is no evidence of a creationist or anti-global warming agenda in any of his papers. It's quite possible that he disagrees with these things; or, if he believes them privately for whatever reason, there is absolutely no publicity of them. He is outspoken against MSG particularly and also vaccinations. I've read many things he's written, many interviews. You'd expect a nutcase to slip in some of their ideas here and there. Not a single sign of, "Oh, and by the way, if people would just stop telling lies about global warming . . . " etc. I've spoken to paranoid nutcases. They can't help pushing their agendas.
This interview sums up a few of Blaylock's ideas quite well. Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by molbiogirl, posted 10-12-2007 4:28 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Blaylock
OK, point being-? How does this have any bearing on his research in nutrition and vaccination? What he's saying is politically loaded yes, and as a liberal I'm sure I'd disagree with him on many points. But there may be some truth in it too. Shit happens and sometimes no one knows about it. Donald Ewen Cameron, from Wikipedia. Second President of the World Psychiatric Association. President of the American and Canadian psychiatric associations. You'd think the only place you'd read about something like this would be in a bestseller, or in the ravings of a conspiracy theorist. However, it is fact.
Donald Ewen Cameron (1901-1967) was a Scottish-American psychiatrist. Born in Bridge of Allan, he graduated from the University of Glasgow in 1924. Cameron lived and worked in Albany, New York, and was involved in experiments in Canada for Project MKULTRA, a United States based CIA-directed "mind control" program which eventually lead to the publication of the KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation manual. Cameron was the author of the psychic driving concept which the CIA found particularly interesting. In it he described his theory on correcting madness, which consisted of erasing existing memories and rebuilding the psyche completely. After being recruited by the CIA, he commuted to Montreal every week to work at the Allan Memorial Institute of the McGill University, and was paid $69,000 from 1957 to 1964 to carry out MKULTRA experiments there. The CIA appears to have given him the potentially deadly experiments to carry out (on Native Aboriginal children in "Indian Residental School Death Camps"), as they would be tried on non-US citizens. However, documents released in 1977 revealed that thousands of unwitting, as well as voluntary subjects were tested on during that time period. These subjects included United States citizens. In addition to LSD, Cameron also experimented with various paralytic drugs, as well as electroconvulsive therapy at 30 to 40 times the normal power. His "driving" experiments consisted of putting subjects into drug-induced coma for months on end (up to three in one case) while playing tape loops of noise or simple repetitive statements. His experiments were typically carried out on patients who had entered the institute for minor problems such as anxiety disorders and post-partum depression, many of whom suffered permanently from his actions. It was during this era that Cameron became known worldwide, serving as the second President of the World Psychiatric Association, as well as president of the American and Canadian psychiatric associations. He was also a member of the Nuremberg medical tribunal a decade earlier, where he accused German medics of things he himself did between 1934 - 1960 or later, though his scientific work during World War II for the OSS has never been a secret.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 10-12-2007 5:03 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Completely irrelevant
Look, I can't comment on this. And this in itself is irrelevant to the well written, thought provoking article which I referred PurpleDawn to. As a parallel, I have a great deal of criticism to aim at the field of psychiatry as it is practiced today. So do scientologists. Our motivations are different; in their case, they've inherited their ex-leader's paranoia of shrinks stemming from his own questionable state of mind. And I'm not about to go join their cult. However, this does not invalidate the good work they've done to expose the inhumane practices of the profession. Likewise, Blaylock may hold some questionable beliefs, I agree. But I do not see them creeping into his more mainstream studies. Science is science regardless of the scientist. You probably wouldn't call what he does science, but you put people like Linus Pauling on the same rubbish heap.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by molbiogirl, posted 10-12-2007 5:35 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Mercury in Children
Everything stated here chimes with what I've learned about mercury in the process of my amalgam removal, insofar as the difficulties in testing levels of it in the body. This is one reason why it's such frustrating guesswork. I could send off for a hair analysis but it would be useless, as you say. However, one concern I have is that there is a certain level of mercury which is considered "safe" for everybody. Everybody is different, we have something called biochemical individuality. You can see evidence in the wide spectrum of reactions people have to taking the same dose of the same drug. Some people seem to be good at excreting mercury, others do not. Some people might be able to safely tolerate much higher levels than others. There might be a genetic susceptibility, which could be exacerbated by other conditions such as environmental toxins or a compromised immune system. This "one size fits all" assumption is part of the problem with allopathic medicine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by molbiogirl, posted 10-12-2007 9:24 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Mercury in Children
Quackwatch. Self-confessed skeptic sites. These kinds of sites have the agenda of "debunking" alt med in all of its forms. The kind of information they give is going to reflect that bias and I would not trust them to be honest or to include all the facts. You have the ability to find a study yourself and comment on it. Why not do this, instead of trusting these sources to do it accurately for you?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by molbiogirl, posted 10-13-2007 4:01 AM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 47 by Percy, posted 10-13-2007 8:43 AM | | Kitsune has not replied | | | Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2007 5:38 PM | | Kitsune has not replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Message 50 of 308 (427891)
10-13-2007 12:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Percy
10-13-2007 11:36 AM
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Re: Mercury in Children
In other words, stop badmouthing people and focus on the evidence. The problem is, what you accept as evidence can be flawed, and in many cases I believe it is. If you want to run a debate where the winners are judged by how many double-blind peer-reviewed studies from prestigious journals someone can list, or how many quotes from Quackwatch they can give, then I'm through with this discussion. You do not question the bias of these, apart from a few human foibles, yet alternative sources I give are dismissed. We see the truth in different ways I think. Please, no more lectures. I'm going to minimise my contributions from now on.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Percy, posted 10-13-2007 11:36 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Message 68 of 308 (428015)
10-14-2007 3:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
10-13-2007 5:08 PM
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Re: Hang In There, LindaLou!
It's OK Buz. Just chill. It doesn't actually matter. What you've done has kept you and your family healthy all your life, and we're starting down that path now too. If people here don't believe you so what? I've flirted quite a bit with the idea of quitting here, but what kept me coming back was the fact that I was lonely, I had a lot of time on my hands, and I wanted to talk to some intelligent people. What I naively didn't expect, though, was that the level of skepticism and closed-mindedness here would be so high for so many aspects of life, not just pure science. The only scientist I've known personally has been my sister-in-law, who is a geologist, and she's open to quite a few ideas. So I wasn't prepared for this. I honestly think that many people here are never going to see our point of view; they are never going to seriously question the validity of the system. Most of the evidence that shows up its problems is necessarily to be found in non-mainstream publications. Those aren't accepted here. This would seem to make trying to win a debate a moot point. It can't be done. However, debating is about playing with words, and power and control. It does not necessarily mean that one has arrived at the truth. I do not say "I won't believe until you show me." I say "Teach me." Quite a while ago I said I was leaving because I'd rather have a friendly chat than an argument. I think I probably should have followed up on that there and then. I'm not sure why you stay in such a hostile environment Buz; I think it hasn't been very good for my own health. I'd enjoy talking to you and PurpleDawn without the rest of the debate going on LOL.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2007 5:08 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Re: Playing with mercury
Lindalou got a filling. Two months later Lindalou got depressed. Guess what caused her clinical depression? I got four fillings after having none previously. I got depressed 2 months later. I do not assume they are causally connected but I accepted the possibility. This is not the only thing I have done to address the depression. Incidentally, I was speaking to my GP about this yesterday. I wanted to see if I could get DMSA on the NHS. He said that the NHS does not test mercury levels in anyone, not if they've been eating lots of fish and are ill, nothing. He said he believes that what I'm saying is possible but that the NHS can't help to pay, which is what I would have expected. But he also said that there are many treatments that work, even though there isn't a lot of empirical evidence for them. He encouraged me to carry on with what I'm doing if I think it's helping. He said that traditional Chinese medicine cured him of his asthma and that his wife has tried several alternative methods, crystal therapy being one that seems to be working for her. I don't have a problem with having an open mind and apparently neither does my GP. Interestingly, how is anyone ever going to prove that people can get ill from what is called "trace" amounts of mercury, if no one is testing for it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by molbiogirl, posted 10-15-2007 9:45 PM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 133 by nator, posted 10-16-2007 11:18 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Message 131 of 308 (428408)
10-16-2007 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
10-16-2007 9:14 AM
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Re: Ignorant Question
Since there's no scientific evidence for harmful effects from vaccines because we get the same kind of results one always gets for phenomena that don't exist, why are you so determined that there must be ill effects from vaccines? Speaking for myself, I see no reason why I should wait for someone to tell me that it actually isn't OK to inject mercury, aluminum, antifreeze, formaldehyde, animal tissues and possible contaminants that go with them (remember SV40); common sense tells me that these things do not belong in the human bloodstream. There has been much talk here about thimerosol on its own, but we're looking at multiple vaccines with multiple components given with increasing frequency to children from a very early age. I'm going to assume it isn't safe until someone can present me with convincing evidence that it is. I want to see long-term epidemiological studies done by independent bodies. Of course, everyone here is also assuming that viruses are the root causes of disease. There's also the holistic theory of disease, which says that the tissue itself has to be diseased before the virus can cause ill effects, just like the water has to be stagnant before mosquitoes breed. This is a basic tenet of traditional Chinese medicine. It asks why, when a virus or bacterium is present, some people stay well.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by Percy, posted 10-16-2007 9:14 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Message 139 of 308 (428421)
10-16-2007 11:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 126 by Trixie
10-16-2007 10:33 AM
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Re: Babies and vaccinations
On your side of the pond, a baby usually gets its first hepB shot within its first few days of life. The second shot is given at 1-4 months. The first injections of DTaP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis) Hib, and polio are given at 2 months. You can view the schedule here.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 126 by Trixie, posted 10-16-2007 10:33 AM | | Trixie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 156 by Trixie, posted 10-16-2007 4:22 PM | | Kitsune has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Message 140 of 308 (428422)
10-16-2007 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 133 by nator
10-16-2007 11:18 AM
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Re: Playing with mercury
crystal therapy being one that seems to be working for her. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Magic invisible gnomes are very good, too. If a doctor and his wife choose to try alternative therapies because conventional Western drugs aren't working, but those alternative therapies are, I'm not going to quibble. Your alternative when drugs don't work seems to be nothing at all.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by nator, posted 10-16-2007 11:18 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 141 by nator, posted 10-16-2007 11:48 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4331 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 09-16-2007
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Message 143 of 308 (428425)
10-16-2007 11:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 138 by nator
10-16-2007 11:33 AM
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Nator's witches brew
I don't eat most of those things anyway, but what have those lists got to do with vaccines, what's in them, or what they do to the body? Yep, TCM has been around for a while. It's got a long and successful track record. I wouldn't advocate using it exclusively, but why not as an adjunct to other therapies? Its philosophy of keeping the mind, body and spirit healthy -- prevention -- is always going to be sound.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by nator, posted 10-16-2007 11:33 AM | | nator has replied |
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