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Author Topic:   Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3899 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 256 of 270 (437915)
12-01-2007 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by molbiogirl
12-01-2007 5:21 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Hacking a child/infant's genitals to bits is morally reprehensible.

Except, of course, for those who don't feel that way.

Anyhow, let's stop hacking this thread to pieces with GM discussion... please?


h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by molbiogirl, posted 12-01-2007 5:21 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 257 of 270 (437940)
12-02-2007 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by molbiogirl
12-01-2007 5:21 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
molbiogirl responds to me:

quote:
Body mod folks hack their tender bits to pieces regularly.

I know.

But there are limits. There comes a time when one becomes a danger to oneself.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by molbiogirl, posted 12-01-2007 5:21 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by molbiogirl, posted 12-02-2007 1:37 PM Rrhain has responded

    
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 258 of 270 (438004)
12-02-2007 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Rrhain
12-02-2007 3:16 AM


Re: This is all getting very silly
But there are limits. There comes a time when one becomes a danger to oneself.

I have yet to find an example of a person who's been prosecuted for splitting his penis in half (or any other extreme genital body mod).

Perhaps you'd like to point me to a specific case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Rrhain, posted 12-02-2007 3:16 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Rrhain, posted 12-02-2007 1:46 PM molbiogirl has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 259 of 270 (438008)
12-02-2007 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by molbiogirl
12-02-2007 1:37 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
molbiogirl responds to me:

quote:
I have yet to find an example of a person who's been prosecuted for splitting his penis in half (or any other extreme genital body mod).

And they don't really prosecute you for suicide, either, though it is technically illegal.

You're asking for nonsense.

Are you deliberately trying to be dense?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by molbiogirl, posted 12-02-2007 1:37 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by molbiogirl, posted 12-02-2007 11:13 PM Rrhain has responded

    
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 260 of 270 (438139)
12-02-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Rrhain
12-02-2007 1:46 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
If you don't mean legal limits, what limits are you referring to?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Rrhain, posted 12-02-2007 1:46 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Rrhain, posted 12-03-2007 2:00 AM molbiogirl has responded
 Message 263 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-03-2007 12:34 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 261 of 270 (438151)
12-03-2007 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by molbiogirl
12-02-2007 11:13 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
molbiogirl responds to me:

quote:
If you don't mean legal limits, what limits are you referring to?

You really don't know? Why do we stop people from comitting suicide and yet not throw them in jail, even though it is illegal to commit suicide?

Yes, there are legal ramifications involved. But you seem to think that those ramifications start and end with a prosecution. Might there be more to it than just the law?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by molbiogirl, posted 12-02-2007 11:13 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by molbiogirl, posted 12-03-2007 10:19 AM Rrhain has responded

    
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 262 of 270 (438194)
12-03-2007 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Rrhain
12-03-2007 2:00 AM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Unlike suicide, body mod has folks that can be prosecuted/regulated.

It would be a very simple matter to prosecute a body mod shop owner.

I did a bit of looking around and ... nothing.

It would be a very simple matter to exclude body mod shops thru local zoning ordinances.

Again ... nothing.

In fact, although I'm certain that some are still on the books, most local ordinances that "outlaw" tattoo parlors have been rescinded.

Is there some other sort of law/ordinance/statute that you think is being used to set "limits"?

Edited by molbiogirl, : sp


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Rrhain, posted 12-03-2007 2:00 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Rrhain, posted 12-06-2007 3:33 AM molbiogirl has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2007 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 263 of 270 (438214)
12-03-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by molbiogirl
12-02-2007 11:13 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
he means that he can't imagine why anyone would think differently from him and why anyone might *want* to change the shape, structure, or appearance of their body parts and yet still be rational, sane, healthy individuals, and therefore, they all must be in need of prevention and psychological treatment. what he doesn't see is that the only reason fgm and circumcision are "wrong" is that these individuals generally are not given the chance to provide consent and they are not provided the necessary health care considerations like cleanliness and sterile instruments.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by molbiogirl, posted 12-02-2007 11:13 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Rrhain, posted 12-06-2007 3:40 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 264 of 270 (438751)
12-06-2007 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by molbiogirl
12-03-2007 10:19 AM


Re: This is all getting very silly
molbiogirl responds to me:

quote:
Unlike suicide, body mod has folks that can be prosecuted/regulated.

Huh? If you attempt suicide, that is against the law. Why don't we prosecute those who attempt suicide? No, not the ones who succeed...the ones who fail. Why do we not prosecute those who try to kill themselves but fail?

quote:
It would be a very simple matter to prosecute a body mod shop owner.

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about why certain actions are considered something that society can decide to prevent...not whether or not they actually go ahead and do it.

quote:
Is there some other sort of law/ordinance/statute that you think is being used to set "limits"?

You mean like how tongue-splitting is illegal?

You're missing the point: There is a line that is drawn. The question we are debating is where. Very simple question: Is it possible for a person to be a danger to himself? More difficult question: If so, how do we make that determination?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by molbiogirl, posted 12-03-2007 10:19 AM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by molbiogirl, posted 12-06-2007 12:24 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 265 of 270 (438752)
12-06-2007 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by macaroniandcheese
12-03-2007 12:34 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
I love being psychoanalyzed over the internet. I always learn such interesting things about myself!

brennakimi responds to me:

quote:
he means that he can't imagine why anyone would think differently from him and why anyone might *want* to change the shape, structure, or appearance of their body parts and yet still be rational, sane, healthy individuals, and therefore, they all must be in need of prevention and psychological treatment.

(*chuckle*)

Question: What is my position on moral absolutes?

Question: What is my attitude regarding suicide?

Practical use of knowledge: Given the previous answers, how might it inform my expected attitude regarding genital mutilation?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-03-2007 12:34 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-06-2007 12:15 PM Rrhain has responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2007 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 266 of 270 (438843)
12-06-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Rrhain
12-06-2007 3:40 AM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Question: What is my position on moral absolutes?

Question: What is my attitude regarding suicide?

Practical use of knowledge: Given the previous answers, how might it inform my expected attitude regarding genital mutilation?

clearly it doesn't matter because you have an irrational attachment to your genitalia.

Why would somebody cut off perfectly functioning, non-diseased genitalia?

you can't imagine why anyone would do it.

How does mutilation of the body not result in "direct and demonstrable harm"?

you consider it "mutilation" instead of a cosmetic choice.

Why do we not let people chop their arms off? We consider BIID to be a mental illness and we stop people from having their limbs amputated.

Why special pleading for the genitals?

you equate the desire to change the form of your genitals with a mental disorder.

and yet you expect me to believe this is informed by any opinion you may have on choice.

i don't know what the hell you think of suicide and i don't care. suicide has nothing to do with genitals.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Rrhain, posted 12-06-2007 3:40 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Rrhain, posted 12-07-2007 9:22 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 267 of 270 (438851)
12-06-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Rrhain
12-06-2007 3:33 AM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Huh? If you attempt suicide, that is against the law. Why don't we prosecute those who attempt suicide? No, not the ones who succeed...the ones who fail. Why do we not prosecute those who try to kill themselves but fail?

You really ought to do your research.

wiki writes:

By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.

In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[3] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[4]

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about why certain actions are considered something that society can decide to prevent...not whether or not they actually go ahead and do it.

Helping someone commit suicide is a crime.

It is prosecuted.

Therefore, if body mod were of the same caliber, helping someone "commit" body mod would be prosecuted as well.

You mean like how tongue-splitting is illegal?

In Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana.

That's hardly "against the law".

And it has yet to be prosecuted.

If you want to argue "it's on the books", there are any number of really stupid laws that are still on the books that are not prosecuted.

Take a look at www.dumblaws.com.

You're missing the point: There is a line that is drawn. The question we are debating is where. Very simple question: Is it possible for a person to be a danger to himself? More difficult question: If so, how do we make that determination?

We haven't drawn that line with regard to body mod.

And, in all likelihood, we won't.

Personal freedom is too highly valued in this country.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Rrhain, posted 12-06-2007 3:33 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Rrhain, posted 12-07-2007 9:33 PM molbiogirl has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 268 of 270 (439240)
12-07-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by macaroniandcheese
12-06-2007 12:15 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
brennakimi responds to me:

quote:
clearly it doesn't matter because you have an irrational attachment to your genitalia.

And here we go again with the psychoanalysis over the internet. No wonder Frist thought he could do it over a videotape. I mean, with videotape, you actually get to see the person engaging in behaviour.

When was it established that I was cut or uncut?

quote:
you can't imagine why anyone would do it.

Yes, I can. I was wanting to know why you thought someone would. That's why I asked YOU. I already know what I think.

quote:
you consider it "mutilation" instead of a cosmetic choice.

Do I? Or perhaps I understand the difference between mutilation and cosmetology?

quote:
u equate the desire to change the form of your genitals with a mental disorder.

Do I?

Question: Have you considered the possibility that I have changed the form of mine? Nah. Of course not. You can psychoanalyze me over the internet, so therefore you know my exact morphology, right?

So spill my secrets. I give you full permission. What, if anything, have I had done to me? When was it done? Who did it? Where? How? Why?

quote:
i don't know what the hell you think of suicide and i don't care. suicide has nothing to do with genitals.

You truly don't get it, do you? Do you not understand that suicide is the ultimate form of "self-modification"? And might not my thoughts on that inform how I would respond to lesser methods?

Here, let me help with another question: What is my attitude regarding getting your hair cut?

Now, here we go with me doing your homework for you:

It's a safe bet that I don't have much of a problem with hair cuts (as an actor, I am constantly having to futz with my hair.) Therefore, there is certainly a form of body modification that is of pretty much no concern.

And thus, a line has been drawn: There is at least one item that falls on this side of it.

Now, as we move to other forms body modification, this will mean that they fall on some side of the line...quite possibly that the line goes all the way out to suicide.

Thus, might there be a methodology to consider when it falls on this side and when it falls on that?

Ah, but that would require analysis and consideration...things difficult to do when you're obsessed with my penis, brennakimi.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-06-2007 12:15 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 269 of 270 (439243)
12-07-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by molbiogirl
12-06-2007 12:24 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
molbiogirl responds to me:

quote:
You really ought to do your research.

And you really ought to keep thinking.

Why was the law changed? Think carefully.

And to help make sure you don't stop: When we find someone who has committed suicide, what do we do with them other than arrest them?

quote:
Helping someone commit suicide is a crime.

It is prosecuted.


...unless you're a doctor and are careful enough to make it look like it was "easing suffering."

quote:
That's hardly "against the law".

I'm sorry...but you found places where it is against the law and that makes it not against the law?

I'm confused. A and ~A | F

quote:
We haven't drawn that line with regard to body mod.

And yet, you found three states where it is illegal to split the tongue.

It seems we have drawn a line.

quote:
Personal freedom is too highly valued in this country.

(*chuckle*)

Then why are we still having huge fights over abortion? Wasn't it decided that it was a woman's personal freedom to determine when she was going to be a parent?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by molbiogirl, posted 12-06-2007 12:24 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by molbiogirl, posted 12-07-2007 11:41 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 270 of 270 (439270)
12-07-2007 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Rrhain
12-07-2007 9:33 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Why was the law changed? Think carefully.

Because, when someone attempted suicide, they were never prosecuted.

wiki writes:

In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial. Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it.

You'll note that the dead were not "punished" either by ignominious burial.

...unless you're a doctor and are careful enough to make it look like it was "easing suffering."

That is beside the point.

The fact remains, when a doctor is thought to have assisted someone in suicide, s/he is prosecuted.

I'm sorry...but you found places where it is against the law and that makes it not against the law?

Again. You missed the point.

Try to take my use of the phrase "against the law" in context.

Yes. In 3 states, tongue splitting is illegal.

It is also illegal to promise to marry a woman and then renege in Delaware and South Carolina.

That doesn't mean that it's "against the law" to ditch somebody at the alter.

It means 2 states are profoundly retarded.

Murder, on the other hand, is "against the law" (in the sense that I used it in my previous post).

It seems we have drawn a line.

No more than we have drawn a line re: the promise of marriage.

Then why are we still having huge fights over abortion?

And women still have the right to an abortion.

In fact, it shows just how highly we value personal freedom that Roe v. Wade is still standing, despite the "huge fights".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Rrhain, posted 12-07-2007 9:33 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
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