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Author Topic:   Is there any reason that the US government should be trusted?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 25 (439425)
12-08-2007 7:15 PM


The latest example of the moral bankruptcy of the current US administration is the distruction of the video tapes of CIA interrogations.
As the evidence continues to mount, incident after incident, is there ANY reason for US citizens to place any trust in our government?
As the evidence continues to mount, incident after incident, is there ANY reason for foreign nations to place any trust in our government?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Jon, posted 12-08-2007 7:51 PM jar has not replied
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 12-08-2007 8:02 PM jar has not replied
 Message 4 by bluescat48, posted 12-08-2007 10:42 PM jar has not replied
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 10:48 PM jar has replied
 Message 18 by Silent H, posted 12-09-2007 5:00 PM jar has not replied
 Message 25 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-11-2008 12:43 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 25 (439501)
12-08-2007 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 10:48 PM


Re: The whole government?
Actually they only did that after newspapers threatened to break the story and after it came out in testimony that the tapes were not available.
And yes, the whole Government, at ALL levels.
AbE: and why should we trust any internal investigation by the very Justice Department that has been show to ignore civil and Constitutional Rights?
Edited by jar, : add more

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 10:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 11:07 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 25 (439519)
12-08-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 11:07 PM


Re: The whole government?
I assume also that it means you won't be voting... ever.
No, I will vote. I expect once again though that an attempt will be made to steal the election and falsify the results, but hopefully there will be enough folk that distrust the government to oversee the election and catch whatever fraud is there.
I would be in favor of some outside agent, maybe the UN, coming in to oversee our elections.
Come on, Jar. First of all, supposing the CIA did destroy tapes (innocence before guilt), that only comes from one tiny fraction of the US government. If they did do it, is it messed up? Heck yeah. Should they pay whatever penalty that exists within the US Code if found guilty? Heck yeah. But blaming the entirety of the US government to show your disdain seems like a bit much.
But that is always your excuse every time an example of governmental misconduct is discovered; "Oh, it's only that part that holds phony press conferences. It's only that part that redacts testimony. It's only that part that suppresses data. It's only that part that condones torture."
How many examples are needed?
You are taking individuals and saying that it encompasses the entire department. That's not fair.
Of course it is fair, this is not a race, it is a business, and it has been shown to be corrupt from bottom to top. It is a perversion.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2007 11:07 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:20 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 25 (439580)
12-09-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 1:20 AM


Re: The whole government?
But if the government is as corrupt as you say, then why not just become an anarchist?
Because we have a method provided as an alternative to rebellion or anarchism, although those are still a legitimate option.
Why not an overthrow of the government? Why not try to get people to subvert the government if this is how you feel?
I have hope, a small hope but still a hope, that the former will not be needed.
But more importantly, if every person within the government is corrupt, then why would you vote government officials?
I never said that every person in government is corrupt, and in fact know that to be false. I worked for almost two decades in government and knew quite a few people who were actually very competent. The problem was, they were hampered by the fact that we tend to elect ignorant folk for the most part and write stupid laws. And that is the best case scenario, to actually accomplish anything while working for the government you must do it in spite of the system.
The only reason the UN exists is because of the US government, the very thing you are railing against. That hardly sounds impartial. Secondly, if the UN is an outside agency, then what gives them the authority to govern the government?
Well your first statement might be true if the US ever paid their damn bills, but we cannot even be trusted to do that. As to the second statement, We the People would give them the authority.
Always? Like hyperbole much? I've said it maybe twice, and only because its true. Its ridiculous to assert that everyone working for the government is corrupt. If you were to conclude that, then every single person is corrupt on the same basis, even you. If that's the case, condemn yourself.
However I have never said that everyone working for the government was corrupt. If that were true there would have been no need for this Administration to make one of their first acts, removing the protection for whistle blowers.
No its not fair because its tantamount to prejudice. You are prejudging people in the government, when it was a government employee that exposed the allegations in the first place.
No, I am judging the organization. The fact is that the culture this Administration has created is one of Evil. They have filled as many spots as possible with folk that love secrecy and despise the Constitution.
If certain members of the CIA were destroying evidence, then let the US government prosecute them on that basis. Even up to the Supreme Court, who, ironically enough, are government employees.
Start at the head and directing influence, the President, Vice-President, Members of the Cabinet, Senior advisers. When the head of a corporation fails miserably and the company is rocked with scandal after scandal, guess what happens? When it is found that actions under that corporate administration were illegal, the CEO can be facing some serious jail time.
Are you ready to say that in your zeal that you overstepped your bounds -- that not everyone in the government is the anti-christ?
Well, since I never said that alleging that I did is simply another example of you misrepresenting the facts.
I mean, imagine some people in the CIA. Imagine them saying to the culprits, "Hey thanks guys for perpetuating the stereotype. We really appreciate it. Thanks to you, cantankerous souls living in Texas think we're just like you."
Good. Guess what. If this Administration had not removed the protections for whistle blowers, those people might have been able to speak out.
The problem Nem is that this Administration began with the full intent to do things that cannot stand the light of day.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 1:20 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 25 (439584)
12-09-2007 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 11:56 AM


Re: The whole government?
How many separate, individual acts of corruption and malfeasance have to be uncovered, exposed, prosecuted, and ultimately pardoned by the President before it's safe to conclude that the Bush Administration is ordering people to commit criminal acts?
One.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 11:56 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 25 (439627)
12-09-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2007 2:40 PM


Re: The whole government?
Jar is saying that from top to bottom, any and all people within the government is a criminal.
I assume that you can show where I said that. Do you think maybe some administrative action should be taken for your repeated misrepresentation of what I actually have said?
Is there some reason you cannot understand
jar writes:
I never said that every person in government is corrupt, and in fact know that to be false. I worked for almost two decades in government and knew quite a few people who were actually very competent. The problem was, they were hampered by the fact that we tend to elect ignorant folk for the most part and write stupid laws. And that is the best case scenario, to actually accomplish anything while working for the government you must do it in spite of the system.
or
jar writes:
However I have never said that everyone working for the government was corrupt. If that were true there would have been no need for this Administration to make one of their first acts, removing the protection for whistle blowers.
or
jar writes:
No, I am judging the organization. The fact is that the culture this Administration has created is one of Evil. They have filled as many spots as possible with folk that love secrecy and despise the Constitution.
from Message 11?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2007 2:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 25 (441007)
12-15-2007 7:48 PM


Yet more evidence that this Administration cannot be trusted.
The Bush Cabal does not want an independent investigation on the destruction of the video tapes.
What is it they fear?
Truth perhaps?
Bush administration: Back off CIA tape probe

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

  
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