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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 20 of 103 (457070)
02-21-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:50 PM


HI CJ, welcome to EvC!
You seem to have a very anthropocentric view of the universe, if I may say so.
Are we just here to live this short and sometimes chaotic and stressful life and then die and never live again on Earth or in the afterlife? That just doesn't seem very exciting to me. We live we die and we never have anything afterwords? To me that's just boring.
Boring eh? Well I am sorry to report that the universe doesn't care whether you are bored or not. There is no requirement that the universe should excite you. If it doesn't, I'm afraid that's what we call tough shit.
From the point of view of a materialist, the universe has no purpose, other than what purpose we ascribe to it. Whilst some may find this dispiriting, I find it rather reassuring. For those who do not believe in a creator god, the universe is not top-down, but bottom-up. There is no top-down reason for our existence. Thus, our purpose, our morality and all that we are, must be our own responsibility. We must find our own reason to live.
As for how the universe formed, I suggest that you read up on the Big Bang theory, but if you are expecting an answer to the "why" type questions, you are going to be disappointed.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 12:50 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:33 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 29 of 103 (457085)
02-21-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:08 PM


Work for Peace
So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony? That's sad.
It would be sad if it were true. Under an atheistic world-view, it is our job to promote peace and harmony, that is actual peace and harmony, not merely the belief in it. We must do it for ourselves, rather than hoping that peace will at some point be imposed from above by God.
"Nobody can do everything,
but everybody can do something,
everyone must play a part,
everyone got to go to work, Work for Peace." - Gil Scott-Heron

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:08 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 43 of 103 (457108)
02-21-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:43 PM


Re: Oh, boy, here we go again...
You're right "percy", here we go again, an atheist trying to pass on "The Big Bang Theory" as fact.
I believe that what out host was driving at was the difference between the every-day definition of "theory" and the scientific definition, which is related in meaning, but nonetheless, quite different.
In everyday parlance, a theory is just an idea, a speculation, nothing more.
In science, a theory is an explanatory framework, a model which is capable of being tested through empirical observation. There is no difference in scientific usage between a "theory" and a "law", save that modern scientists tend to eschew the use of the term "law", as it is somewhat misleading.
A scientific theory is not a fact. Rather, it is an explanation of the facts, as they are observed, based on current evidence and understanding. Compare and contrast the following;
quote:
We are 12 billion light-years from
the edge,
That's a guess,
No one can ever say it's true,
But I know that I will always be
with you. - Katie Melua
quote:
We are 13.7 billion light-years from
the edge of the observable universe,
That's a good estimate with
well-defined error bars,
Scientists say it's true, but
acknowledge that it may be refined,
And with the available information, I predict that I will always be
with you - Simon Singh
The latter quote displays a slightly more scientific attitude. I hope this helps to clear up your apparent misunderstanding.
The Big bang theory is extremely well supported by evidence, reaching back to the first fraction of a second of our universe's existence. It is an extremely useful and successful theory and it has much support. I am in no way trying to "pass it off" as undeniable concrete fact, but rather as the best currently available explanation of what is observed.
As a side issue, I see no reason why, if I were to embrace Christianity at some point in the future, I would necessarily doubt the Big Bang as a result. The two beliefs are quite compatible.
Added by Edit: In message 36 you mention "bashing". Please believe me when I say that I have no intention of bashing anyone. I'm not trying to do you down, honestly. You may feel a little ganged-up on, with several people disagreeing with you, but that's life on a debate board I'm afraid. No-one is trying to bash you, we just disagree with you.
Edited by Granny Magda, : See above.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:43 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 103 of 103 (457513)
02-23-2008 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 3:03 AM


Hi CJ,
If I might throw in my two cents woth;
if you don't believe that there is a God, then do you believe there doesn't need to be a reason for existence?
That is exactly what I believe. There may be a reason for existence for all I know. I just don't think that it is a given; we might well live in a universe entirely devoid of intrinsic meaning, indeed, it seems to me that we live in just such a meaningless universe.
It is important to note however, that I do not consider our lives to be meaningless. Without intelligent beings to marvel at it, the universe would be meaningless. It is our instinct to create meaning that makes existence meaningful. This is an active process; we must create meaning for ourselves, in the way we live our lives. No outside agency or deity is going to step in and give us purpose, whether we believe in one or not.
I don't feel discomfort. I believe God created the universe
Well I don't and I don't feel any discomfort either.
(Atheists) say they don't know why or how (and that's fine with me) they just say it has been here. Well, people ask me how can you believe in God and that he created everything without any proof. I would say, I just believe and that I have faith. To me they are pretty similar.
I disagree. You believe that God made the universe. Science doesn't say that you are wrong, it simply says "We do not currently know what, if anything, caused the universe to come into existence."
You are placing your faith in a particular explanation, namely God.
Science remains silent, until equipped with evidence upon which an explanation might be based. Even then, no explanation is ever treated as "gospel". Every scientific theory is subject to constant examination, pending better explanations. Good scientists do not have "faith" in their theories, in quite the way that you mean it. Rather, they have a tentative confidence that they have provided the best explanation of current observations.
Belief in the absence of evidence is not logical or sensible. It is merely wishful thinking. The most that can be said of God as the initiator of the Big Bang, is that we have "no need for that hypothesis".
I have not been around many atheists
Maybe you have and they're just not telling...
Seriously, as Chiroptera has noted, atheists come in all shades of opinion. Ask ten atheists a question and you'll probably get eleven different answers. It's good that you want to understand other people's opinions though. Hopefully, that's a big part of why we're all here.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:03 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
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