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Author | Topic: Theories of Cosmological Origins: Are They Science? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
It was suggested that if I wanted to explore the beginnings further I should start a new tread.
HereHi bluescat48,
bluescat48 writes: In what way does science require faith? Good question. Anything at and everything prior to T=10-43 has to be believed by faith. I have learned some things over the past year even though no one thinks I have. One of the things I have learned is:
HereSon Goku says, Now for the umpteenth time, the singularity is not a physical object.
If the singularity is a mathematical equation and not physical then it can not be the universe. Another of the things I have learned is:
Here Son Goku says, 13.7 billion years ago the whole universe was about the size of a pea. This pea sized universe is at T=10-43. The only way that universe can be there is to believe it is there by "FAITH" there is no evidence for it being there. From the point the Big Bang Theory takes over and begins to describe what took place there is evidence, some of which is questioned. Similar evidence is presented in the Bible. God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : Trim Down for Admin Edited by Admin, : Change title. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I don't want to release a thread that continues to mix faith in science with the misunderstanding of a cosmological issue. Could you please trim this down to simply the cosmological issue, and change the title appropriately? Just the portion containing your reply to Bluescat should be sufficient.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Admin,
I trimed it down and changed the name. If the name is not sufficient change it to whatever you think is best. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5827 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
Ok, let me try to take a stab at this.
You wrote
quote:From what I know of physics (and I am a college physics and chem major), nothing about prior to T=10^-43 is known except that our current model just doesn't apply there. Unless you're including "I don't know" in the faith catagory, I simply don't know how you could describe this part of science as faith. quote:You're right that the singularity is not the universe. I don't think anyone is going to dispute with you here. The singularity is a description of a state of unknown that so far science has been unable to describe or model. If you have trouble comprehending this, simply replace the word "singularity" with "absolute unknown". Nothing we know about the universe can help us understand the singularity. About the only thing we know about it right now is none of our theories and mathematical models work in such condition. Again, if you want to place the "I don't know" in the faith catagory, then I guess we are in agreement.
quote:Sure, there is. Based on our mathematical model of such an early universe, it had to be very dense and very hot. In other words, the whole universe back then had to be glowing hot. If the universe expanded to its current size from this very small pea size, the prediction under the mathematical model was that there must be an after glow of this very dense, very hot condition. What's more, this after glow should be seen just about evenly throughout the universe everywhere no matter what direction we look. Sure enough, the cosmic background radiation was discovered. This cosmic background radiation is found everywhere we look at in the universe. It is just about evenly distributed throughout the cosmos. About the only thing that we can possibly imagine that could have placed this cosmic background radiation this evenly everywhere in the universe is if the universe started out as a very small, very dense, very hot thing.
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4745 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
No.
Scientific theories start some wee bit of time after the origin. About 10-43 seconds after. However, it is kind of like if I turn the corner of a street and see a bloke walking towards me, and I notice that he’s getting closer and closer to this corner with each step, that it is probably a safe bet that before I stepped around the corner and spotted him he was farther from this corner still. You’re right, I didn’t see him prior to my turning the corner so he could have been walking backwards or standing still in anticipation of my appearance. He could have sprung fully formed from the head of Zeus. I don’t know. That’s why I don’t say. It wouldn’t be scientific. By that very same token, science, striving to be scientific and all, doesn't say what happened prior to 10-43 seconds. Only that it was probably hotter and denser. But "probably hotter and denser" doesn't amount to a theory. If by "origin" you don't mean T=0 kindly let me know. Kindly ****** Scared of the dark
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi teen4christ,
teen4christ writes: it had to be very dense and very hot. In other words, the whole universe back then had to be glowing hot. Why did it have to be so hot? Why could it just not exist? You say this point which is a mathamatical equation can't tell us anything. So without faith how do we know anything is there.
teen4christ writes:
It sure was. Sure enough, the cosmic background radiation was discovered. You do know other predicted the CMB before Gamow and did a better job and they did not use the Big Bang Model. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi lyx2no,
lyx2no writes: Scientific theories start some wee bit of time after the origin. About 10-43 seconds after. The Big Bang Theory starts then. Read the title again it says origins. This is Percy's choice of title.
lyx2no writes: By that very same token, science, striving to be scientific and all, doesn't say what happened prior to 10-43 seconds. Then why did you say: " Only that it was probably hotter and denser. " You say it don't say anything and then you say it says something.Isn't that showing faith. If by "origin" you don't mean T=0 kindly let me know. I am refering to anything between T=O and T=10-43. Anything that is there has to be assumed, believed to be there, faith that it is there. Because there is no evidence that anything is there. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2506 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
ICANT writes: Anything that is there has to be assumed, believed to be there, faith that it is there. Because there is no evidence that anything is there. All you seem to be saying is that no-one knows the ultimate origins of the universe, which is exactly what the physicists are telling you. Are you trying to imply that people need faith to know that they don't know something? Do you need faith to know that you don't know my real name? If not, then what's your point? No-one needs to have faith about the ultimate origins of the universe. It's something religious people do, but if sane and honest people don't know something, they say that they don't know. Evidence based beliefs do not require faith, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily right, or 100% sure. For example, ancient cultures believing that the sun goes round the earth were doing so completely reasonably, on the basis of observation. They were not doing so based on blind faith, even though they turned out to be wrong. If, however, they believed that the sun was the sun God driving his chariot of fire round the earth, that would be faith based, because they had no observations or evidence for it at all. I think what you may be doing is trying to reduce science to the level of your own faith based superstitions. You're wrong. Your religion is on the same level as the belief in the sun God. Just like the sun God belief, it is evidence-less, and therefore no more or less likely to be true. You could try honesty, for a change, and give up your religion, but I doubt if you will. Honesty, after all, wouldn't be so comfortable for you, would it? Try to be honest with yourself about this.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
You do know other predicted the CMB before Gamow and did a better job and they did not use the Big Bang Model. I am intrigued by this. If true I did not know this. Did they also predict this in specific measurable terms or just predict it's existence? Do you have any more info on this?
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
bluegenes writes: You could try honesty, for a change, and give up your religion, but I doubt if you will. Honesty, after all, wouldn't be so comfortable for you, would it? Try to be honest with yourself about this. Let's please keep the focus on the topic and not on other participants.
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ICANT writes: Hi lyx2no,
lyx2no writes: Scientific theories start some wee bit of time after the origin. About 10-43 seconds after. The Big Bang Theory starts then. Read the title again it says origins. This is Percy's choice of title. The phrase "cosmological origins" does not specify a time period, but it certainly includes much more than just the instant T=0. This area of study seeks to understand and model the conditions in the early universe that led to the cosmological characteristics we observe today.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Anything at and everything prior to T=10-43 has to be believed by faith. If anyone claims to know for definite what happened prior to this time, currently, they are doing so on faith. Very few people make this claim. However, developing a theory to try and explain what was happening at this time is science. The problem that these theories suffer from is that the unique predictions they make about the universe are incredibly difficult to test. Hopefully we will have a better idea which theories are looking in the right direction at least after the LHC has been running for a while.
his pea sized universe is at T=10-43. The only way that universe can be there is to believe it is there by "FAITH" there is no evidence for it being there. Assuming that the universe exists during time is not a faith based assumption. If time exists, so does the universe. There is evidence that the universe is about 13.7 billion light years in length/duration at this time. Even you agree that the universe(heavens/earth) exists 10-43 seconds after "In the beginning". Believing that the universe exists during its existence is not a matter of faith re: CMB: An interesting 10 minute video can be found here = as part of the physics for future presidents series. It gives a brief overview of why there should be one according to Big Bang cosmology, as well as its 'clumpiness' The beginning of this video talks about this "Planck Epoch" in much the same we have tried to get it across to you. The creator of the video uses a gigantic spinning question mark and says, in effect, 'We don't know, we have some theories but we haven't been able to confirm them yet'. And finally a classic wiki quote to drive the point home
quote: Definitely looks like science to me. Nobody is making any unsubstantiated claims, just describing what seems to be the case based on the evidence and proposing new experiments that can help give us more evidence to increase what we do know.
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4745 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
Good morning ICANT:
You may wish to take note that I write in whole sentences and stuff. Every one of your questions are contained within my previous post.
You* writes: The Big Bang Theory starts then. Read the title again it says origins. This is Percy's choice of title. I* writes: If by "origin" you don't mean T=0 kindly let me know. To which I add: T=10 -44 wasn’t the origin either.
You writes: Then why did you say: " Only that it was probably hotter and denser. " I writes: By that very same token . I writes: . it is probably a safe bet that before I stepped around the corner and spotted him he was farther from this corner still. I writes: But "probably hotter and denser" doesn't amount to a theory. To which I add: Read the title again it says Just saving myself some writing. (Not really, just being a wise guy.)
You writes: You say it do[es]n't say anything and then you say it says something. Isn't that showing faith. I writes: But "probably hotter and denser" doesn't amount to a theory. Faith in “probably”? To this I add: Firstly, if you’re going to have me saying something at least don’t have me saying it in rubbish English. Secondly, “it” in that sentence is “science”, and science isn’t me. The confusion was likely my fault, -· --- -.
You writes:
Anything that is there has to be assumed, believed to be there, faith that it is there. Because there is no evidence that anything is there. To simply assume that a trend continues is not faith. It would require faith to believe that the Universe deviates from the trend simply because the maths break down at that point. The maths are descriptive not proscriptive and have no actual say so in what the Universe does. Now seriously, ICANT, I use the phrases “Thank God.”, “Bless you.” and “God bless America.” often. I do not believe in the existence of God or any mechanism by which one could be blessed. I use them as metaphors, which some believe cheapens them. I tend to agree but don’t care because I don’t believe they have any non-metaphorical value. But I really, really can not understand why you would want to use “Faith” as a metaphor. *Violation of the rubbish English rule.”Violation of full sentence rule. Kindly ****** Scared of the dark
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
ICANT writes:
Could you please expand on this a little bit? This is like saying "hey, did you hear about the newly invented cure for cancer?" and then stop there. Most of us would want to hear more about this.
You do know other predicted the CMB before Gamow and did a better job and they did not use the Big Bang Model.
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