Biblical Translation--Eden, 2

Autumnman writes: So your perspective is Unorthodox? So you can say something original? Wow.So a great big congradulations that you can say something original.I think the OLDEST complaint I've seen on the Internet about ANY bible study is "Where did Cain get his wife??".Stunning originality.Your initial comments about the mountain of God and Eden did get my attention. Because I was headed in that direction too. That is Revelation 21 and 22 mirror Genesis 1 and 2 in many very significant aspects.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

To all readers.I'm getting a little grouchy. Apologies to all parties that had to read any unpleasant words I wrote.I'm taking a rest and may come back latter.

Bertot,I searched and this is the only comment from you I found in AM's post concerning that matter. So excuse me if you had other comments on it which I didn't find. I gather from this that you are proposing that perhaps God created a special person to furnish Cain with a wife.Well, I never thought that this was the case. I have never had such a concept as this.Let's look for a moment at some matters and see if it is necessary to resort to such a theory.To begin with Eve is called the mother of all living:"And the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living." (Gen. 3:20)To hold to a special creation theory of Cain's wife we would have to resort to a belief that Adam's name was mistaken and that Eve was not the mother of the specially created human wife of Cain. Are you willing to jump to such a concept? I am not.The implications of it would be so significant that we would have to conclude there were TWO nearly simultaneous proto mothers. Would God make the special wife of Cain with the sin nature?Would God create the special wife of Cain unfallen? Then for all intents and purposes she should still be around. That is unless this special creation also ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But the garden where the tree was is off limits to man.To concoct a theory that this special wife of Cain somehow went back into the garden and became as all other women descendents of Adam and Eve is too much speculation out of thin air for me.So I have to assume that Eve was indeed the mother or great grandmother of all boys, girls, men, and women. I prefer the belief that we ALL trace out roots back to Eve. The alternative would be to trace all humans back to Eve AND Mrs. Cain.Now lets consider if the ages of people make it necessary to resort to such an extreme theory.The ages of people are given for the godly line which leads to the Israelites and ultimately the Messiah. The geneologies of the other line is not given. Apparently that is not God's concern to trace the years of those people.When Adam and Eve had Seth Adam was one hundred and thirty years old (Gen. 5:3, 4:25). We are told that Seth was a son to replace Abel who was killed.We are told that Seth was considered the replacement of Abel. What we are not told is whether Eve had female children between the death of Abel and the birth of Seth. It is possible that females were born to the first couple inbetween Abel's death and Seth's birth."And Adam knew his wife again. And she gave birth to a son and called his name Seth, for [she said], God has appointed me another seed instead of Abel because Cain slew him."My opinion is that the expectation of a seed was the expectation of a MALE child. For God said that HE would crush the head of the serpent. I think that the first couple were still expecting a Savior male child to help them get back into the paradise of Eden. The long reachingness of the prophecy they did not realize, in my opinion.Do we know for certain that Eve had no girl babies before Seth was born? I do not know that. But if she did it is not unreasonable that Cain married one of those girls in Nod after she became of age.Do we know for certain how long it was between the murder of Abel and the marriage of Cain? I do not know how long that was. Could it been sufficiently long for a girl child to have matured and become a sister / wife of Cain? I think it is possible.Consider another scenario. After Adam and Eve had Seth at Adam's age of 130 years old Adam lived another 800 years. And they had other sons and daughters:"And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years, AND HE BEGOT [MORE] SONS AND DAUGHTERS." (Genesis 5:4)In the 800 years after Seth's birth in which Adam and Eve had other "sons and daughters" could one of those daughters been available for Cain to marry? I think so. I assume that Cain died after Adam if his longevity was similar to his father's. There seems ample time in eight hundred years for a daughter of Eve, a sister of Cain, to mature and be Cain's wife.It seems ample time for a daugher of a daughter, during those 800 years, to have matured to be a much younger yet marriagable spouse for Cain.I just don't see where there is a need to resort to the special creation of a female for Cain.What I think we have to realize is the the account in Genesis is not exhaustive. It is selective. What is important for us to know is what is econimically recorded. In passing it says Cain obtained a wife period. We do not know how LONG it was between the time he fled the murder scene to Nod and when he got married.Did he get married one month latter?
Did he get married 10 years latter?
Did he marry 30 years latter?
Did he marry 130 years latter?
Did he marry 330 years latter?
We simply do not know.We know he wandered to Nod. We know he obtained a wife. That is all.Inventing a secondary first female mother, I think, presents more theological problems than it solves.What do you think? We do run the risk of getting into "endless geneologies" here which Paul recommended the New Testament teachers avoid.Your comment?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The author of some 13 of the 27 New Testament books had revelation from God extending from heaven onto the earth and under the earth as well. His revelation was so great that God had to send a thorn of discomfort to his flesh to keep him from being too proud.There is no way anyone had more insight into the Old Testament than Paul. That is why God chose such a man to author so many books of the New Testament. He completed the word of God.Not that he did not confess that some things were too deep to be comprehended easily. That Apostle Paul was specifically converted and prepared by God. Part of that preparation was his extensive success in the Hebrew's relegion and because of his extensive expertise on the Hebrew Bible.He was an extraordinary scholar who took the initiative to persecute the Christian church, a star student of Gameliel. He received mercy and was chosen by Christ to "complete the word of God." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

IAJ, I thought that I provided an answer why the issue should not baffle us. The whole matter is solved by two keys:1.) The longevity of early humans2.) God's permitting of the first humans to marry close relativesConcerning the different realm of Eden ...Is there a need to remove Eden from the physical planet in order to make sense of the story? I don't think so.When God met Moses in the incedent of the burning bush He told Moses to take his shoe off of his feet. The reason was that the place on which he stood was "holy ground." A burning bush in which Moses met God is as mysterious as a tree of life. Yet it was on "holy ground" on the planet. Am I right?The same occured with Joshua. He also stood on holy ground: This too was an epiphany of the Angel of Jehovah with the angelic army ready to fight in the heavenly realms against the demonic and evil principalities of Canaan. Yet the scene took place on the earth on holy ground.I can believe that a spot on the planet was reserved for a garden of the first human being. Everything about the description of the physical surroundings suggest that it was on the earth.Indeed the earth is crucially important to God. It is His will which is to be done "on earth" as it is in heaven.I do acknowledge that the talking serpent is atypical. But we have the miracle of the talking donkey also in the book of Numbers which occurs on the earth -" ... a dumb beast of burden, uttering with a man's voice, restraining the madness of the prophet" (2 Peter 2:16 comp. Numbers 22:`21-30)I admit that the talking serpent is a mystery. But it does not for me require that the garden of Eden need be transfered into another realm. Nature may have been in a realm unfamilar to us on this side of the fall of man.I have already written that the divine "Us" of Genesis and Isaiah is, I believe, the Triune God. He is the same as the Divine "We" in the gospel of John verse 23. Only One of the Godhead has been incarnated as a man in Jesus: The Divine Person of the Trinity spoke in the creation of man - "Let Us make man ...". And the Divine Person of the Trinity spoke just before the crucifixion of Christ promising that the Son and the Father as the Divine mysterious "We" would, in Christ's resurrection, come to His lovers to make an abode within them.I do not believe that any angels assisted God in the creation of man, such that God would say "Us" - meaning He and some angel/s. Well, "another realm," I think, would not mean so "another" that it could not be located on the planet. Cain moved to the east of Eden. So whatever the nature of your propsed "another realm" I think the record shows physical and directional aspects related to it. Can one move to the "east" of a existential realm? Where is east of another realm? Where is east of another dimension?In modern terms would we say, "I moved to the east of Cyberspace." The two concepts don't make sense in the same sentence. How many other animals spoke or why Eve displayed no surpise when the serpent did speak are a mystery to me.I have no answer for those things at this time. But G.H. Pember writes about biblical issues regarding animals. I have not read that particular book. But much of his exposition on Genesis has been extremly helpful to me. Namely Earth's Earliest Ages is a book I would recommend to any serious student of Scripture.That is the first half of the book dealing with Genesus chapters 1 through 6 or so. I don't like the second half where he goes into a lot of history of mythology.Perhaps the next time I speak to someone about the talking serpent in Genesis I will have studied what Pember had to say about that. God created the earth for His kingdom. After the second coming of Christ there is a restoration of the planet for a period of 1,000 years in which the surviving and saved nations enjoy God's original intention. Listen to what Jesus says as He judges the nations left alive from His throne in Jerusalem: "[A]ll the nations" refers to all the Gentiles who remian at Christ's coming back to the earth. That is the Gentiles who were not destroyed who followed Antichrist at Armageddon (Rev.16:14,16;19:11-15,19-21).This will be the judgment of the living before the millenium [b](Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1). It differs from His judgment of the dead at the great white throne after the millennium (Rev. 20:11-15).The "sheep" on the left hand of Christ the Judge will be allowed to inherit the kingdom prepared on the earth "from the foundation of the world". Though we may say the kingdom is in another realm, it is still on the earth. From the foundation of the world in the garden of Eden God prepared a kingdom for man. This was the realm in which Adam lived in the earth.The saved Gentiles will be subjected to the priestly saved Israelites who will have Christ reigning over the planet from Jerusalem. This is why I say this kingdom is not other worldly. It was not in Adam's day. And it is not at that time in the future when the saved Gentile "sheep" inherit the kingdom of God which was prepared from the foundation of the world. Jesus said "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." (Matt.5:5) This kingdom is in "the earth" according to the words of Jesus.Luke 19:17,19 say that Jesus will reward His faithful servants with authority over so many cities respectively: These cities over which Christ's rewarded servants are to rule are in the inhabited earth when He returns. I don't think that they will be in another realm as you describe the garden.1.) The coming "earth" is to be subjected not to angels but to the human servants of Christ:"For it was not to angels that He subjected the coming inhabited EARTH, concerning which we speak. (Heb. 2:5 my emphasis)2.) Christ returns to establish His kingdom not in another realm but in the inhabited earth:"And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited EARTH, He says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Heb. 1:6).By comparing the facts about Christ's return and restoration of the earth and the facts of early Genesis - "the foundation of the world" we can ascertain that the garden kingdom/paradise was earthly. It may have been in a quality which was in another realm from what we know today. But I do not think it was in another dimension or not on the surface of the geophysical planet.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Bertot,I didn't see to what the exchange concerning Paul was about.I'm sorry if my comment did not address that. I was only burdened to point out that there is no way anyone had more revelation into the Old Testament than the Apostle Paul.We simply do not have more inspired insight into the Scriptures than Paul had.What we do need to come up to speed to is, Paul's revelation. He is not fully appreciated by us.Now what was it that you all were discussing about the literalness or not of? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

IAM, Jesus took the lead to say that. And parellels can be found in the Old Testament too.It was Jesus who said that certainly before Paul said it.I don't think it negated OT law. I think it made a more penetrating point than OT law. It hightened the morality of OT law.It is not what physically enters into the mouth which defiles a person, taught Jesus. It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a person. Some of what comes out of the heart comes out in spoken words which defile the person.Jesus meant the things coming out of the heart - evil reasonings, fornications, thefts, evil speakings, etc.He made the standard higher and more penetrating touching the innermost motive of the human heart.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

IAM, D Bertot, Help! What's this? That they rejected Paul is a no brainer. That they were the FIRST to follow Jesus is surely your concoction of an idea. Oh come on Joseph. WHERE do you get your stuff ???His letters to the Galatians is one place that proves that those under his teaching knew and did follow the OT.Same with Corinthians and Colossians. And if Paul wrote Hebrews, which I think he most certainly did, they were familiar with the OT and probably were proudest of the Hebrews cast into a delimma because of the truth of Christ that they could not ignore.They discerned the voice of God speaking again in Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The standing of the law renders you and I guilty and in deep trouble. We have both broken the law and therefore both need justification before a absolutely righteous and holy God who does not play favorites and is no respector of persons.So if you argue for the firm standing of the law of God then you better consider how you will be saved. That is because even if you were from this day be perfect in every aspect of obeying the law (which is not likely) you still would not be able to erase your trangressions of the law commited by you up to this day.The law of which you desire to boast will condemn you before God in the end. So you would be advized well to read more carefully the Gospel of Christ and the justification within the realm of the only Person who is not condemned by the law and who alone fulfill its requirements before His Father."Christ is the end of the law to everyone who believes ..." You can discuss what a Islamic scholar said with a Moslem. I have no comment about what an Islamic scholar said about this in relation to his Quran.You often try hard to lump Islam and the Christian gospel together to "kill two birds with one stone." Debate you complaints with Islam with someone of the Islamic faith.Now concerning the Christian gospel, Jesus DID say that He one iota or one serif would not pass from the law until all is accomplished. This proves false your above statement that - What is more telling then this innaccurate charge is the direct words of Jesus; You can determine whether this reveals Jesus encouraging or discouraging the addition or substraction to the law.Do you really read the New Testament ?I don't have time this morning to discuss this text the way I would like to. There is more I would like to write this morning. But this at least I believe negates your false charge the the New Testament does not warn against the substraction or addition to the law of Moses.And again I am not defending Islam here but the Gospel of Christ. You can take up your complaint with Islam with a Moslem.

Volumes could be written on Genesis 2:21-22. I will comment briefly and suggest where others can read more if they choose.The building of Eve from Adam, the wife from the husband, is a little window into the entire divine revelation of the Bible. It is a little prototype of the eternal purpose of God.In order for God to produce a compliment for Himself as a "romantic" partner, God first became a man - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14) Romans says that Adam "was a type of Him who was to come" (Rom. 5:14). Therefore the first created man typifies the incarnation of God to be a man.In Genesis 2:21-22 the deep sleep used for the production of Eve, Adam's counterpart and wife typifies Christ's death on the cross for the producing of the chrch as His counterpart: Through Christ's death the divine life within Him was released, and through His resurrection His released divine life was imparted into His believers to transform and build them up into the Bride and Wife of Christ, His church, and ultimately the New Jerusalem.The drawing out of the rib from Adam typifies the drawing out of the divine life from the Son of God. In both instances a wife for the one from whom a part was taken, was built. So we see that in Christ is the second man. He is the last Adam. He is the new Adam and the Head of a new humanity of God-men. The divine life came from Him to produce His counterpart the eternal New Jerusalem which is the enlarged and consummated church.John 19 shows that the disciple witnessed blood and water coming from the side of Jesus when the soldier pierced His side. If the readers are able to receive it:1.) The blood signifies redemption.2.) The water signifies life impartation.As the rib was extracted from Adam to build for Adam a wife, so blood and water came from the God-man Jesus Christ to both provide redemption and divine life impartation to produce His Wife, the church and ultimately the New Jerusalem in eternity future.Adam slept. Jesus died. The deep sleep of Adam symbolizes the redemptive life releasing death of Christ.Through the process of His death and resurrection Christ is wrought into man with His life and nature so that man can be the same as God in life and nature in order to match God as His counterpart.Furthermore, the rib taken from Adam's opened side typifies the unbreakable, "indestructible" eternal life of Christ. This indestructible life flowed from the pierced side of Jesus in the blood and water. Out of the wounded side of the Son of God came that which produces and builds up the church as His complement.God in Christ dies and resurrects to produce and build up a romantic match for Himself. In this way the producing of Eve from Adam is a little window into the producing of the eternal human / divine city of God for eternity future as God's counterpart.Another point is that the Bible does not say that Eve was created but that she was built. The church is built through transformation from the old nature into the new. Redemption and new birth is only the first step. The mighty prayer of Jesus shows that there is the PROCESS through which the church is perfected into oneness within and with the Triune God: The full deified collective and corporate entity which God desires to obtain is PERFECTED into one. She is not created automatically mature in this regard. She must pass through the process of being perfected. The perfecting is akin to the building of the woman from the rib of Adam.On one hand this Mrs. Christ collective is one in Spirir by birth. On the other hand she needs to be perfected that she may "ARRIVE" at a practical oneness. So says the Apostle Paul: So we can see that the producing of the wife of Eve included God building a woman from the rib. This was a process rather than instantaneous creation.And the BUILDING UP of the church to be PERFECTED and to ARRIVE is also a process. This process takes place as the imparted Christ encreases and grows within the born again believers, building them up together and transforming them into the image of Christ from one degree of glory to another degree of glory: Christ gets into man as the life giving Spirit in order to transform them with His resurrection and divine eternal life to be like Him. This is to produce a great corporate and aggregate counterpart to match God in life and in nature. Only in the Godhead does God remain the Source and Head of the divine marriage relationship.The producing of Eve from Adam typifies the producing of the New Jerusalem from the God incarnate Jesus Christ.With Adam and his wife the one became two. And then the two became one. With Christ and the church it is the same. She comes out of Christ and is brought back to Christ.She will be presented to Christ without spot, blemish, sin, defect of any kind. The process of building and perfecting cannot be stopped and will produce the outcome that God wills.Revelation 19:7 and Ephesians 5:27 speak of God';s redeemed people in Christ being brought to Christ for marriage. Surely, the marriage of Adam and his wife typifies this great truth.The spousal relationship between God and Israel is a part of this development that God works out over the ages.In Genesis (Heb) Ishsah (2:22,23) is the increase of Adam. The church is the encrease of Christ [b](John 3:29-30). John the Baptist regarded himself as a friend of the bridegroom Christ. He who has the Bride is the bridegroom. Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom. And the coming of the bride to Him is the encrease of Christ. "I must decrease, but He must encrease."

Thankyou brother bertot.I learned many of these things from others. And we commonly speak of these things in our meetings locally and around the globe.God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churches