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Author Topic:   What is the Song of Solomon?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 53 (476164)
07-21-2008 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jaywill
07-08-2008 9:33 AM


......?
The neck, breasts, navel, hair, locks, cheeks, etc. are all sensous symbols depicting some aspect of this consummate Bride which the redeeming God is forming for Himself.
Jaywill, there is no way you could possibly believe this, especially with the scripture you juxtaposed it with. The Song of Songs has nothing to do with anything except the special love and sensuality between a man and a women in the throes of passion. It's poetry no different than a Shakespearean sonnet.
To search for these hidden meanings isn't necessary. I mean, if you want to glorify God with this book, then glorify that which God had made for mankind -- each other.
Are you suggesting that this book is prophetical, and is about Jesus Christ during the Second Coming?
"Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies." - Song of Songs 4:5
What cryptic message could you possibly glean from this that doesn't actually have to do with him really liking her breasts?
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : typo
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Edit to add

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jaywill, posted 07-08-2008 9:33 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 07-21-2008 5:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 46 by jaywill, posted 07-21-2008 6:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 53 (476173)
07-21-2008 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by iano
07-21-2008 5:11 PM


Re: ......?
My moneys on jaywill on this one. By a country mile to boot (which would be unusual when it comes to betting against you.
I just don't see it. It seems that some Christians are really reaching for this one. Now, you know that I agree that much of the Bible is cryptic -- intentionally so. But this one seems like people are trying really hard to Christify everything. While a large percentage of the OT is dedicated to setting up the Christ, I don't think that all of it does.
But of course, feel free to change my mind. I'm certainly open to any suggestions to the contrary.
But then again, I didn't reckon on you "inking it up" either )
Heh... Yeah, most probably wouldn't. But then, I haven't gotten any new tattoos since my conversion either. Not that there is a correlation. The difference now is that I have a family and we don't make very much money. I can't justify spending that kind of cash on something a frivolous as that while denying the mouths of my children.
quote:
What cryptic message could you possibly glean from this that doesn't actually have to do with him really liking her breasts?
As with Hell, God is limited to describing environments in a manner we can (at least begin to) comprehend. Not that that means Hell actually involves high temperatures. How would you describe heaven and to be with God if not like this? What could be better that to be at the breast of the woman you love (if in describing "the best", you limited to describing things in a manner we can (at least begin to) comprehend?
While I understand the point you are making, it is anecdotal. When Christ or Paul or whatever saint spoke about God's love for His Bride, never is the context sexual in any way. I would think that you would agree that the Song of Songs is mostly about love and lovers, but is it not also sensual and sexual in nature?
In my mind it is evidence that sex for Jews and Christians, or anyone for that matter, was not intended to be an "icky" thing, which atheists often indict against Judeo-Christian ethics. It should also be a release for overly puritanical Christians who all but repress their God-given sexuality. In my mind it is glorifying what God had given to the sexes -- the enjoyment of sex, the closeness it is supposed to foster, and the fulfillment of that design.
I see no allusions in it pointing to a prophetic message about Christ.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : typos
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : typos
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : edit to add tidbit

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 07-21-2008 5:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 07-21-2008 5:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 53 (476180)
07-21-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by iano
07-21-2008 5:51 PM


Re: ......?
He jumps into the cauldron of the detail regarding every word - in order to get it to fit history.
Creationists tend to do this. All evidence has to fit the story, rather than asking if the evidence fits the story. But I guess that kind of fits the profile here too, at least from my perspective. Some Christians find it difficult that anything could have been included in the Bible that was not in some way connected to Jesus.
I think some Christians haphazardly make false parallels.
Paul and Christ come from quite different angles - if taken in isolation - but they are totally complimentary if taken together. That neither took this sexual angle doesn't mean they are divorced from it. Doesn't Pauls language drip of union from the pores? Of course it does.
I've never seen this great disparity between Paul and Jesus that some people talk about. Clearly they were two different people, but I always thought the messages coincide harmoniously.
As to the intent of your question, I don't see any relevance to the debate. I mean, if someone wants to convince me that the Songs of Solomon are really about Jesus, the first place they should start is with the scriptures themselves. Thus far I find Jaywill's assessment to be lacking.
I counter-suggest that the Bible is not primarily a cultural document on sex?
No, of course not. Just the book in question.
This book elevates human sex to be as God intended it to be: an expression of total love and union between two personhoods. And he did so to illustrate as best as can be, the total love and union that will exist between two other personhoods.
David was probably the most sentimental of all the writers as it relates to God. And even he, despite his sexual indiscretions, does not place God in a sexual context at all. In fact, it is unheard of. That is not evidence of it somehow being an impossibility, but neither are different writing styles evidence of Jesus being described as copulating with the Church.
If you have specific scriptures, perhaps we can grapple with some of those.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 07-21-2008 5:51 PM iano has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 53 (476183)
07-21-2008 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jaywill
07-21-2008 6:16 PM


Re: ......?
Every form of life requires pleasure. God as the most living one probably requires the most pleasure.
God would be self-sufficient in Himself, and I would think that He requires nothing, but desires much.
I admit that there is no explicit claim in the New Testament that I can think of that Song of Songs concerns Christ and His church.
Right, and Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, Matthew, etc, etc all take hundreds of OT scripture to point to Jesus. Nowhere is this book even mentioned. While that would not necessarily preclude it, I think it is something to consider, especially if you think it references the Rapture.
But there is no such claim that Joseph is a type of Christ either. Yet when we examine the life of Joseph there are uncanny similiarities. He was betrayed by his brothers for his "dreams" of authority. He was cast into a pit. He was lifted out in three days. He was sold for pieces of silver.
Yeah, but the similarities were made manifest in the New Testament. The Song of Songs has nothing pointing to it.
3.) Jesus said that something greater than Solomon was there when He was there. This indicates that what Solomon was is a shadow of the substance of a greater one.
He didn't say Solomon, he said Moses... Unless you are thinking of another piece of scripture. The only reference to Solomon uttered by Jesus, that I can remember off-hand, was during the Sermon on the Mount, and it had to do with how earthly riches are vanity compared to heavenly/spiritual gifts.
4.) The whole Bible ends with a romantic scene of a marriage between the redeeming God and His people formed into a Bride and Wife.
It is not talking about fondling breasts or touching holes unique to a woman. Songs of Solomon are.
Perhaps it is not necessary to you. MAybe you don't care about Christ and the church so for you it seems not necessary.
It seems disingenuous. I could find any book of the Bible and draw an extremely vague false parallel if I want. But I don't want to because it is not necessary. There are tons of OT scripture that evidently point to Jesus as the messiah. This book isn't even on the radar, IMO.
My point is that for some of us there is the need to be led deeper into its significance.
Precisely. And I fear that may be clouding an otherwise healthy judgment.
I think it also touches on the Second Coming of Christ. For example the last passage in the Song of Songs
quote:
"Make haste my beloved, And be like a gazelle or a young hart upon the mountain of spices" (SS. 8:10)
As the concluding word of this book, the lover of Christ prays that her Beloved would make haste to come back in the power of His resurrection. This the imagery of the gazelle or young hart. This speaks of the power of Christ's resurrection.
The "mountains of spices" relates to Christ setting up His kingdom on the earth in His Second Coming. These sweet realms of His kingdom will fill the whole earth (Rev. 11:15; Dan. 5:35)
That seems like a massive leap to come to that conclusion, especially when no one, including Jesus himself, makes mention of the Song of Songs. If what you are saying is true, it makes Revelation look crystal clear and completely unambiguous.
Whenever a male is speaking, is it representative of Jesus (the Bridegroom) is speaking to his Bride? Is whenever a female speaking, it is the Bride (us) speaking to the Bridegroom (Jesus)?

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jaywill, posted 07-21-2008 6:16 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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