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Author Topic:   objective/subjective morals/conscience?
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2361 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 41 of 94 (492689)
01-02-2009 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jaywill
01-01-2009 7:50 PM


Re: Practical Morality
Hi jaywill,
It's always good to read your posts -- thanks. Your clear descriptions of your state of mind ("My thoughts are still developing...") are especially refreshing. A couple points stood out for me:
1.
jaywill writes:
... we have TIME to learn how to live in oneness with Him in ever deepening degrees of union. We can abide in Him as an indwelling Presence. And He can abide in us as a realm and sphere to express His perfect life from within us, regulating our reactions, manifesting Himself in our personalities. This union expresses the highest level of morality on the earth, if we allow Him access to all of our soul.
This describes what I think is an entirely subjective basis for morality.
As you say, holy scripture is not (cannot be) a fully-detailed instruction manual that provides a specific "moral" answer for every possible situation. For many situations where people must choose a course of action, there is no external, explicit specification that says which choice is the "moral" one.
But then, when you say that a particular state of mind, involving a particular faith or belief, is the (sensible? best? only?) basis for moral behavior, you are actually dodging the question of how to validate that a particular choice is the "right" one. I expect there will be a fair degree of consistency among Christians when you present them with a given scenario and ask "What would Christ do?", but I also expect there are many scenarios that will elicit different answers, even among Christians of a single denomination, because each individual with this religious belief is likely to have a slightly different relationship with (a different understanding of) his/her God.
It is an intrinsic and unavoidable fact of human existence that we must act in spite of uncertainty. The spiritual sense of certainty that you describe is an ideal that I assume is quite rare (and people who assert -- or even believe -- that they have such certainty are still liable to do things that really turn out to be wrong {ABE: of course, the same could happen to people who express or believe their own "certainty" on the basis of evidence, but perhaps less often}). Attributing one's choices solely to religious belief, based solely on some personal sense of righteousness, actually makes the justification of one's actions more problematic, because the religious belief is subjective.
2.
I think that to fit morality into a purely evolutionary paradigm you have to stress the materialism of morality. That is as life forms do what they do to replicate themselves some mutations pass on material substance which is equvalent to moral values. The benefitial mutations are then made to survive through natural selection.
Does love have a weight? Is there an atom for honesty? I think that is where we are if morality comes about from your evolutionary process.
I think you are attributing too much materialism to ToE as it applies to behavior.
Consider the vast range of "innate" behaviors observed in virtually all animal species (including man): things that creatures do, abilities that they acquire, without needing to be "taught" deliberately by others. Then consider how some innate behaviors will yield different outcomes when the members of a given species face different conditions.
My favorite example is comparing houseflies and moths: trap the insects in a clear wine bottle, and lay the bottle on its side with the bottom facing a light, and the open end facing darkness. The moths will remain trapped in the bottle (and eventually die unless you change things around for them), because their behavior is to always fly towards a light source. Meanwhile, many (possibly all) of the houseflies will escape because their flight behavior is not constrained in that way. (If you try to alter the experiment to favor the moths and disfavor the flies, a few of the flies are still likely to succeed in escaping.)
For all the species that seem to us to lack symbolic language, self-awareness and abstract thought, the linkage between behavior and physical inheritance/mutation can be studied and understood as a mechanism that consists in a binding of neural and muscle structures, and that interacts with events in the environment as perceived by the creature's given senses.
As a general rule, when the senses, neural reactions and muscle capabilities combine in ways that work well in a given environment, the whole package tends to get passed on to subsequent generations. Over time, as mutations continue (both physical and behavioral), the ones that work better in the given environment will lead to a "honing" or "fine tuning" of both physical and behavioral patterns. When environmental conditions change (either because of moving to new territory, or because of things like climate change), the direction of favored mutations will change accordingly, but flexibility of behavior will tend to be the more important factor for survival.
For humans, the matter is obviously more complicated: so much more goes into the determination for each choice of action; the acquisition of our behavioral repetoire is a much more prolonged and complex process; our dependence on elaborate social structures for survival tends to turn every behavioral trait into an equally elaborate mixture of individual and social motivations.
The power of our behavioral flexibility, as proven by mankind's ability to survive and propagate in virtually every land-based ecosystem on the planet, seems to overshadow -- and indeed to override -- the influences of physical mutation. An infant born of Chinese parents and adopted by Arabic parents would have no difficulty learning Arabic as a native language, as well as the entire system of social behaviors of the Arabic community where the child grows up. The debilitating effects of many crippling genetic conditions are overcome by societal norms that allow the affected individuals to receive special treatment so they can live the fullest life possible.
Viewed from an evolutionary perspective, the basis -- the basic rule -- for deciding what constitutes moral behavior can be stated quite simply: whenever you can, choose the course of action that will yield the most benefit to the widest range of life. I think we could look at history (and pre-history, and variations across communities and populations living today) and see an evolutionary vector for morality in terms of what the individual considers to be "the widest range of life" that should benefit from one's choice of action: pure self-interest would be the most primitive state; preservation of offspring and immediate family members is more advanced; then preservation of the clan, then of the multi-clan village or neighborhood, then of the larger town, the city-state, the nation.
Very few have reached a stage where "the widest range of life" has global scope, and includes all species. But the results the of choices mankind has been making over the last couple millennia are reaching a point where a much larger proportion of us must reach that stage, or die for lack of this greater degree of flexibility.
The point I want to stress about this perspective on morality is that the bases for making choices, and the rules for assessing the actual value and correctness of the choices we make, are fundamentally objective: the proof will be in the results. We will still be acting with varying degrees of uncertainty, but the goal, and the realistic expectation, should be a gradual reduction of uncertainty as we get better at doing what we need to do.
This is too important to be consigned to vague and ephemeral notions of religious beliefs.
Edited by Otto Tellick, : minor addition in part 1, as marked.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jaywill, posted 01-01-2009 7:50 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2009 8:52 AM Otto Tellick has not replied
 Message 43 by John 10:10, posted 01-02-2009 11:34 AM Otto Tellick has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2361 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 44 of 94 (492723)
01-02-2009 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by John 10:10
01-02-2009 11:34 AM


Re: Practical Morality
John 10:10 writes:
If you have no objective moral standards, then doing what we need to do becomes very subjective.
That was my point about the problem that is inherent in moral codes based on religious beliefs -- they are subjective (and jaywill, representing (some of) the faithful, agreed).
But how do we get better at doing morally what "we need to do?"
By carefully observing the impact of what we've already done, by avoiding the actions that do more harm than good and pursuing the ones that do more good than harm (as measured, to the best of our ability, according to the widest possible scope of life), and by seeking tirelessly to understand how things really are and how our environment, our physical nature and our social/individual behaviors really work, without being constrained by archaic, counterfactual beliefs.
I'm sorry if I seem too dense to understand your references properly, but the "instructions" you cited strike me still as being quite vague about how to discern a "successful" (correct, moral) course of action from the opposite. I don't see a single objective criterion there.
I know there's a saying: "Judge not, lest ye be judged", but let's face it, humans have to make judgments about what other humans do, and have to work with or against the efforts of others accordingly. Relying solely on a religious basis for these judgments is not only inadequate, it's potentially counter-productive.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by John 10:10, posted 01-02-2009 11:34 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by John 10:10, posted 01-02-2009 3:29 PM Otto Tellick has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2361 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 47 of 94 (492804)
01-03-2009 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by John 10:10
01-02-2009 3:29 PM


Re: Practical Morality
John 10:10 writes:
I said this regarding objective moral standards we are to live by.
... God has given man ... the objective moral standards ...
If you like, I can quote a few or dozens if necessary.
No need for that at this point. Your use of "objective" there is either meaningless or self-contradictory, as discussed in previous posts on this thread.
In any case, what has been given to us in the bible comes from people. These people may have been convinced that they were speaking on behalf of some deity, but the words came from people. That is where words come from. You can profess all you want against this assertion, and claim that your personal experience disproves it for you, but this does not disprove it for others.
These particular words have been through many tortuous turns and diversions. They have been read and interpreted in many different ways, and have led readers/believers to draw many different conclusions, often mutually incompatible. Viewing other EvC threads (e.g. this one, which is both long-running and still current: Pick and Choose Fundamentalism), it seems that some parts don't really fit well with other parts in terms of their "instructions".
The general and still common strategy for dealing with disputes about how to interpret particular points in the bible -- or more often, how to extrapolate from the bible into the many details that it does not cover -- is to divide into splinter groups because there is no agreeable (objective) basis for resolving or reconciling the disputes.
You, John, will choose as you see fit in accordance with your particular interpretation of the faith, but if your choice diverges from the course that would be chosen by truly objective standards, you will be part of the problem, not the solution, and claiming religious righteousness for your actions will not change that.
I would hazard a a guess that the success of Christianity in its two millennia may be due in large part to the significant amount of congruence between the moral standards professed by Jesus, and moral standards that derive from truly objective principles. I appreciate this fact about Christianity, but as a religion, it remains susceptible to all sorts of outrageous distortion, due to its reliance on subjectivity.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by John 10:10, posted 01-02-2009 3:29 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by John 10:10, posted 01-03-2009 11:24 AM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2361 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 66 of 94 (493096)
01-05-2009 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Blue Jay
01-05-2009 6:49 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
Mantis (aka Bluejay) writes:
If there are two equally-needy and equally-compatible heart-injury victims, neither of whom will survive another hour without a heart, and only one heart to give, who do you give it to?
The essential question is, "How do you choose who will live and who will die?"
Actually, if the two victims are both conscious and aware of what is going on, I think that the essential question should be: How do you provide a basis for the two of them to reach a consensus choice among themselves? The most moral solution to the dilemma would be the one that the affected parties can both agree to.
If one or both victims are not conscious or aware enough to make this choice, then the decision should involve the person(s) most attached to the victims by relation, dependency of affection. (In the absence of such proxies, the doctor(s) involved must do their best to pick the one who has the best chances for immediate success in the procedure, and longer productive life after the procedure; any judgment based on perceived benefit to the rest of society may be going too far.)
It strikes me as entirely possible that the notions of altruism and self-sacrifice to a greater good can be elicited from average people, even in such a life-or-death situation. And this can be true even when the people involved are not Christians of any variety.
Of course, it's just as likely (probably more so) that such a consensus could not be reached within the allotted hour, in which case... who knows? If they really both die at the same time, perhaps there is a third potential recipient around somewhere -- both gambled on a possibility of outlasting the other and both proved wrong, and it's their own fault that they both died. If one does go first, well, it looks to me like a form of natural selection, which operates outside of any moral code.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Blue Jay, posted 01-05-2009 6:49 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Blue Jay, posted 01-06-2009 12:11 AM Otto Tellick has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2361 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 68 of 94 (493105)
01-06-2009 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Blue Jay
01-06-2009 12:11 AM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
Mantis writes:
Interesting observation: you can find subjective morals anywhere!
I'm sorry, I really don't understand the intent of this remark. Could you explain what you mean by this? How does it relate, exactly, to the bit you quoted?

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Blue Jay, posted 01-06-2009 12:11 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Blue Jay, posted 01-06-2009 12:17 PM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
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