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Author Topic:   objective/subjective morals/conscience?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 43 of 94 (492717)
01-02-2009 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Otto Tellick
01-02-2009 4:05 AM


Re: Practical Morality
The point I want to stress about this perspective on morality is that the bases for making choices, and the rules for assessing the actual value and correctness of the choices we make, are fundamentally objective: the proof will be in the results. We will still be acting with varying degrees of uncertainty, but the goal, and the realistic expectation, should be a gradual reduction of uncertainty as we get better at doing what we need to do.
Yes, the proof is in the rusults (Matt 7:16-20).
But how do we get better at doing morally what "we need to do?" If you have no objective moral standards, then doing what we need to do becomes very subjective.
God has given man His Bible love letter explaining to us how we can enter into relationship with Him, and the objective moral standards how we ought to live thereafter. Once we enter into relationship with God through the blood of Jesus, Paul give us these instructions:
Phil 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The goal for the Christian is to be saved to the "uttermost" those that come unto God by him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25).
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-02-2009 4:05 AM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-02-2009 12:32 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 46 of 94 (492751)
01-02-2009 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Otto Tellick
01-02-2009 12:32 PM


Re: Practical Morality
I'm sorry if I seem too dense to understand your references properly, but the "instructions" you cited strike me still as being quite vague about how to discern a "successful" (correct, moral) course of action from the opposite. I don't see a single objective criterion there.
I said this regarding objective moral standards we are to live by.
God has given man His Bible love letter explaining to us how we can enter into relationship with Him, and the objective moral standards how we ought to live thereafter.
If you like, I can quote a few or dozens if necessary.
The problem, whether Christian or not, lies in the power and ability to live by these objective moral standards. For the Christian, God gives us His enabling Spirit so that we can live morally and godly by His strength. Many Christians fail to avail themselves of God's enabling Spirit, and continue to struggle all their lives in the flesh. For the non-Christian, one lives morally as best he can by his own strength, some very well and many not so well.
As for me, I choose to live by God's enabling Spirit, not my own.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-02-2009 12:32 PM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-03-2009 12:59 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 49 of 94 (492863)
01-03-2009 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Otto Tellick
01-03-2009 12:59 AM


Re: Practical Morality
You, John, will choose as you see fit in accordance with your particular interpretation of the faith, but if your choice diverges from the course that would be chosen by truly objective standards, you will be part of the problem, not the solution, and claiming religious righteousness for your actions will not change that.
Call it "my particular interpretation" if you like, but I choose to live by the words of Jesus, as He declared in these verses.
John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
I'm very sorry you think that the words of the Bible and the words of Jesus just came from people, and not from people who were inspired by the God who is to write the Scriptures (2 Pet 1:20-21). Maybe you will have to have a Road to Damascus experience as did Saul in Acts 9 before you are convinced that Jesus is Lord?
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-03-2009 12:59 AM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 50 of 94 (492866)
01-03-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by PaulK
01-03-2009 4:49 AM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
But this is not a problem unique to the Bible. It is one that occurs in everyone's mind. Our moral intuitions do not manage to cleanly distinguish widely agreed moral rules from parochial cultural rules. To do that requires conscious examination of the situation - and a willingness to accept that our personal moralities may not be absolute.
This fact is a further blow against the idea that there is an absolute morality. Our intuitive ideas about morality are one of the major lines of argument allegedly supporting the idea of an absolute morality. The fact that these ideas can be clearly wrong (if often not to the person holding them !) seriously undercuts any such argument.
My so-called ideas of "absolute morality" are found in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. The fact that my personal morality has not yet lived up to His perfection does not discourage me from "pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. (Phil 3:14-16).
Blessings

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Replies to this message:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 52 of 94 (492965)
01-04-2009 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Straggler
01-04-2009 5:27 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
OK. And if somebody elses moral conclusions are equally believed by them to be founded "in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ" and yet differ from your own moral conclusions who is right and on what basis?
The moral conclusions that are found in the Person of Jesus can be validated by His life and the truth that He taught. If my moral conclusions and behaviors do not measure up to the perfection of Jesus, then my moral conclusions and behaviors are wrong, and so are others who claim the same.
Absolute morality, even if it exists and is God given, can never knowingly be known to man.
Matt 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Edited by John 10:10, : added verses

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 54 of 94 (493013)
01-05-2009 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Blue Jay
01-04-2009 10:06 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
Both you and your friend are basing your course of action on Jesus' example. Who is right? How can you know?
The key is the one who is praying to the God who is. If the Lord tells you to go fishing and the first fish you catch has money in its mouth, It's OK by the Lord (and me) to use this money any way you want.
Morals are judged primarily by our behaviors.
Jesus love you.
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 56 of 94 (493030)
01-05-2009 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Straggler
01-05-2009 10:33 AM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
And if you both believe you are praying to the "God who is" how can you ever actually know who is wrong and who is right?
I pay attention to the ONE who tells Peter to go fishing, and the first fish Peter catches has a coin in his mouth. If you can find someone better than this, pay attention to him.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Straggler, posted 01-05-2009 10:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Huntard, posted 01-05-2009 12:02 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 01-05-2009 12:12 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 59 of 94 (493036)
01-05-2009 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Huntard
01-05-2009 12:02 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
And how would you determine this actually IS god talking to you, as opposed to some other entity trying to deceive you?
You will keep running in circles until you pay attention to Him whom God sent:
Matt 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
As for me, I pay attention to the Lord (Acts 2:36).
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 62 by bluescat48, posted 01-05-2009 3:09 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 61 of 94 (493038)
01-05-2009 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Straggler
01-05-2009 12:12 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
Objective and absolute morality cannot exist unless we can know the mind of God.
If you are a Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, read 1 Cor 2.
The Solomon test you propose is not realistic. Hospitals/doctors have to make decisions like this all the time. It is a "team decision", not a moral decision, based on who is the most needy candidate who is able to receive and not reject the organ. I don't play hypothetical games with unbelievers, and neither does the Lord.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 01-05-2009 12:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 63 of 94 (493052)
01-05-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by bluescat48
01-05-2009 3:09 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
You didn't answer Huntard's question.
God's children know the voice of Jesus as He declares in John 10:27,
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me"

This message is a reply to:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 70 of 94 (493133)
01-06-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Huntard
01-05-2009 5:09 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
So, basically, you have no way to tell. Thanks for clearing that up.
Though I find it highly dangerous you would act on any voice in your head.
No, it's the other way around. You have no way to tell.
As for me, just as I learned to listen and respond to the love of my earthly parents as I grew up, I've learned to listen and respond to the love of my heavenly Father as revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Those that have entered into the new birth relationship with the Lord as He explains in John 3:3-7 can hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:27).
The danger is in not following Him.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Huntard, posted 01-05-2009 5:09 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2009 11:36 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 71 of 94 (493139)
01-06-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Blue Jay
01-05-2009 6:49 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
Jesus does not say "let's say there was a man going down from Jerusalem to Jericho."
Jesus says there was "a man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers."
This was a real life happening, not some hypothetical teaching Jesus was giving to Jews who despised Samaritans.
If there are two equally-needy and equally-compatible heart-injury victims, neither of whom will survive another hour without a heart, and only one heart to give, who do you give it to?
I'm sure you think you've found the perfect moral delimma to which there is no answer. But on earth we all live with imperfect people with imperfect bodies. There is no such thing as "two equally-needy and equally-compatible heart-injury victims," as you have described. As I said, a "hospital team" would make the best decision based on the need of person and the ability of the person not to reject the new heart, commending both into the hands of God for continuing life or death.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 74 of 94 (493156)
01-06-2009 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Huntard
01-06-2009 11:36 AM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
As for me, just as I learned to listen and respond to the love of my earthly parents as I grew up, I've learned to listen and respond to the love of my heavenly Father as revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
No you didn't. You assume you did, but since you can't point to a single way of telling, you actually can't.
The danger is in not being able to tell if it really is him who is talking to you.
Your contention is not with me, but with Jesus who declared His children can know His voice and follow Him (John 10:27).
All you are proving is that you are not one of His children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2009 11:36 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2009 4:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 76 of 94 (493163)
01-06-2009 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Huntard
01-06-2009 4:10 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
I thought all humans were god's "children"?
All humans have the potential to be God's children. To be a child of God, one must be "born again" as Jesus explained in John 3:3-7,
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.'
Those humans who are "born again" become children of God able to hear the voice of Jesus and follow Him. The Lord may tell His children to feed the needy one day, and help the sick another day. But I've learned that when I obey His first instructions, then He gives me more instructions, not confuse me with new instructions when I haven't obeyed His first insructions.
Trust and obey, there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.
John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
What is dangerous is to "not trust" in Him whom God as sent.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2009 4:10 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2009 5:27 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 78 of 94 (493169)
01-06-2009 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Huntard
01-06-2009 5:27 PM


Re: Moral vs Ceremonial law
What if you heard two voices, one would command you to feed the needy all Sunday long, and the other would command you to go help the sick all Sunday long. Which would you follow, and why? And don't come up with that same drivel you fed Mantis about hypothetical situations. They are there to illustrate a point. Now, for you to illustrate your point, all you'd have to do is say: "I'd do this, and these are my reasons". That would make it clear. Failing to answer the question will make only one thing clear, namely, that you have no way to tell if god is speaking to you. And that, quite frankly, will make you very dangerous.
If you could understand the English language and the spiritual language that comes from talking with Jesus, you would know that I answered your question.
But since you can't, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2009 5:27 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
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