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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 271 of 306 (497301)
02-03-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by 8upwidit2
02-03-2009 11:38 AM


Re: Extant Writings
they lack thinking skills. Jaywill
You're the one who seems to want everyone to notice your ass shaking around rather than your head.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by 8upwidit2, posted 02-03-2009 11:38 AM 8upwidit2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by 8upwidit2, posted 02-03-2009 9:26 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 274 of 306 (497311)
02-03-2009 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Brian
02-03-2009 11:49 AM


So who named the Gospel and what was the date when it was named?
Are you having trouble finding this basic information Jay?
Yea man. Boy am I having trouble. I mean I have to go so far as to get up and walk across the room and look up some information on the Gospel of Matthew.
Who named it. I don't know.
Irenaeus (c. 130 - 202 AD) sited it as authentic, meaning he regarded Matthew as the author.
Source: a chart "The New Testament Canon During the First Four Centries" I believe by Norm Giesler.
Our record of Matthew having been cited as apostolic liturature between 70 - 130 AD
Furthermore no major church scholar sited it as a disputed book as far down as the council of Carthage in 419 AD.
Now you tell me when the book of Matthew was first considered in question as to authenticity please.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 270 by Brian, posted 02-03-2009 11:49 AM Brian has not replied

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 Message 277 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 3:49 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 275 of 306 (497313)
02-03-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Huntard
02-03-2009 12:13 PM


Re: Extant writings
This text is written by the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!
Upon days when thou findest eggs, doth not think they commeth from the chicken, or from other feathery creatures hopping or flying around. NAY! They art put there by the one that knows the way, me!
These were the words of the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!
Can you see what I did there Jaywill? Just because some text claims it was written by such and such, doesn't mean it actually IS.
Yea. And I bet just because your mom says she's your mom doesn't mean she actually is either.
Find me the date as best you can of the first recorded DOUBT that Matthew was not written by Matthew. I bet you can't go back more than a couple of hundred years.
But in the second century Irenaeus (c. 130 -202) listed it as authentic. And as far as the 5th century AD we see no church father naming it in a list of questionable apostolic books.
So most trusted Dr. Johnny Come Lately, when did New Testament scholars first begin to raise doubts?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 273 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 12:13 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 12:53 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 285 by Nighttrain, posted 02-04-2009 5:40 AM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 286 of 306 (497450)
02-04-2009 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Kapyong
02-03-2009 3:49 PM


According to the information I have (yes across the room on the shelf) the Gospel of Matthew was cited in Pseudo Barnabus (c. 70-130).
So that is why I said it was sited sometime within that timespan.
However the column in the chart does say "Citation or allusion".
Can you provide me with an indication that during those same years the authenticity of Matthew was questioned ? That might help your case some.

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 Message 277 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 3:49 PM Kapyong has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 287 of 306 (497452)
02-04-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Kapyong
02-03-2009 3:49 PM


There is no such record.
No Christian writer refers to G.Matthew by name in this period at all.
80s - Colossians, 1 John, James - NO mention of G.Matthew
90s - Ephesians, 2 Thess., 1 Peter, 1 Clement, Revelation
100s, 110s - Didakhe, Jude, Barnabas
120s - 2,3 John, Apoc.Peter, Secret James, Preach.Peter, Quadratus
130s - 2 Peter, Pastorals, G.Peter, Hermas
Pseudo Barnabus (c. 70 - 130) makes either a citation or an allusion to the Gospel of Matthew according to my sources.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 277 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 3:49 PM Kapyong has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 288 of 306 (497455)
02-04-2009 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Huntard
02-03-2009 12:08 PM


Re: Extant writings
Or, perhaps the author thought that it would lend credibility to it actually being written by Matthew. Clearly, it worked
Conspiracy theory. If you're paranoid enough you can see a conpsiracy everywhere.
Now you have to explain why an author who exults such a high level of morality as taught by Jesus would also conspire to deceive his audience.
The central figure of his writing is a pristine example of honesty and integrity. In fact Jesus in Matthew exemplifies and also teaches the highest human morality on earth. Yet you imagine that to persuade us of this Matthew injects a deceptive tactic.
Maybe, maybe, maybe ...
Maybe when Jesus said, "the last shall be first and the first shall be last" it made a lasting impression on one who was naturally proud and competitive. It sunk in and was subtly manifested in his own writing.
As a Christian working in teamwork occasionally with other Christians, it is completely understandable to me. Paul also reminded the Philippian to consider not just your own qualification but those of others.
You can think what you wish. I think this little detail reveals the humility of the author. That would make Matthew the most likely author.
My imagination is also able to surmise various alternative conspiratorial explanations. But I think the simple interpretation is the most likely.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 289 of 306 (497457)
02-04-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Huntard
02-03-2009 12:53 PM


Re: Extant writings
Find me the date as best you can of the first recorded DOUBT that Matthew was not written by Matthew. I bet you can't go back more than a couple of hundred years.
And this is relevant how? Belief that something is true is not evidence that it's true.
It is relevant because the more time that passes the easier it is for some skeptic to raise doubts.
People wait until the survivors of the Holocost have all long died out before they begin suggesting that it did not happen.
In the future scholars will be much more impressed with people who deny that 6,000,000 Jews were slaughter by Germany around the late 1940s than for those who proclaim it in the 2000s.
I bet your first questioners of the authenticity of the book of Matthew could not be located until 15 or 16 centries after its writing.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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