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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 841 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 46 of 109 (357069)
10-17-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by carbonstar
08-13-2006 2:10 PM


Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
Any serious Bible study needs to clarify the biblical definition of terms. The importance of parsing the Old Testament definition of the term 'Christ' cannot be over-emphasized.

What's that you say? The word Christ doesn't appear in the Old Testament? Well then, you must be reading the Bible in English. The word 'Christ' appears plentifully in the old Greek and Latin Bibles. Why has the word 'Christ' been removed from my Bible?

We must understand what this term meant to Jews before Saul of Tarsus and the Christian Church gave it their special spin. The Jewish understanding of the term 'Christ' had not changed from the time when they applied it to any and every king of Israel. There is no reason for us to assume that Jesus spoke this word with some new, special, and hidden definition in mind; just waiting for Saul, and the RCC to explain it.

I maintain: it was a term of power politics which for the Jews, inspired national pride; and for the Romans, raised the specter of a Jewish rebellion.

Seems to me, Christians should have already been told about this.


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 841 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 47 of 109 (358033)
10-21-2006 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by doctrbill
10-17-2006 1:25 PM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
Come now my friends.

Am I alone in this realization.

Hasn't anyone among you suspected the truth of this?

Not even suspected it?


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2006 1:25 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 109 (358084)
10-22-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by doctrbill
10-21-2006 8:29 PM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
I knew that christos meant annointed and the Hebrew word for annointed, but never looked at how the LXX and the Vulgate had used it. I've only found links to the LXX and vulgate in the last year and have looked at a few words and how they are used in the other translations, but hadn't looked at the word Christ. I guess I never thought about it since I understood it meant annointed.

So technically speaking there has been more than one Christ.

It is scary how much we are at the mercy of our translations.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2006 8:29 PM doctrbill has responded

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 841 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 49 of 109 (358138)
10-22-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by purpledawn
10-22-2006 9:30 AM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
purpledawn writes:

It is scary how much we are at the mercy of our translations.

Indeed.

Virtually every translationn has been the result of committee action. Men agreeing to disagree for the sake of getting out their product (a revision of holy scripture). Determining by majority vote, what the holy scripture shall say.

In the course of comparing various versions I see strengths and weaknesses in the committee approach. One advantage is that it allows the work to be completed in less than a lifetime. There may be disadvantage in the fact that committee members possess varying degrees of expertise and honesty. I have observed that some committee members are bold and liberal with their translation while other are cautious and/or squeamish.

One of my favorite examples of this reality comes from the Living Bible (now replaced by the more traditional and far less colorful: New Living Translation). The first example is outstandingly liberal yet piercingly perceptive and, to my knowledge, unprecedented among the hundred or so versions extant.

Ezekiel 16:7

quote:
King James Version: "I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: [thy] breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou [wast] naked and bare."

quote:
Living Bible: "You grew up and became tall, slender and supple, a jewel among jewels. And when you reached the age of maidenhood your breasts were full-formed and your pubic hair had grown; yet you were naked."

quote:
New Living Translation: "I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed, your hair grew, but you were naked and bare."

The Living Bible is, technically speaking, a paraphrase. Sometimes paraphrase is the best way to go. Sometimes direct translation destroys the intended imagery. This is an especially significant matter in the case of Ezekiel. Ezekiel was quite fond of pornographic imagery. No one really doubts that the hair in question is pubic and failing to say so may wrongly suggest to some readers that the young lady's head had been shorn. Dropping in the word 'pubic' is consistent with the earthy imagery for which Ezekiel is known and loved.

I had another example in mind; an example of an exceptionally timid paraphrase from the Living Bible but haven't been able to locate it this morning. If and when I rediscover it, I'll be happy to pass it along.

Suffice it to say that more honest renditions of holy scripture are 'out there.'


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 10-22-2006 9:30 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1675 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 50 of 109 (358717)
10-25-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by doctrbill
10-17-2006 1:25 PM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term 'Christ'
doctrbill:

The importance of parsing the Old Testament definition of the term 'Christ' cannot be over-emphasized.
....

We must understand what this term meant to Jews before Saul of Tarsus and the Christian Church gave it their special spin. The Jewish understanding of the term 'Christ' had not changed from the time when they applied it to any and every king of Israel.

Part of that 'special spin', too, owes to the content already given to the word Christos by non-Jewish speakers of Greek in the Roman Empire.

A title like 'Annointed One', though common to all Greek speakers, was loaded with specific cultural implications. Many of these were themselves derived from traditions and rituals of ancient origin.

The significance of the title Christos would be very different for a Judean Pharisee conditioned to hear it as a translation of the Hebrew Meshiach than for a Macedonian Mithraist with no experience of Judaism at all. Just the same, it would be a powerful symbol for both individuals--and they might well find themselves sitting side by side at a prayer meeting after Saul of Tarsus came through town. Each would sing praise to Christos while holding very different understandings of the term.

Spin accrues from the bottom up as well as the top down. A different character and theological flavor was bound to emerge in the new religion as soon as some regions of the empire produced more converts than others, or as Gentiles began converting in larger numbers than Jews. The skew in understandings would influence the direction taken by the new religion regardless of what its evangelists said. It would even affect what they said.

_

Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 841 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 51 of 109 (358733)
10-25-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 8:09 AM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term 'Christ'
Archer Opterix writes:

A title like 'Annointed One', though common to all Greek speakers, was loaded with specific cultural implications.

Hi Archer,

Thank you for that informative blurb. It explains a lot and complicates the issue.

Life was so much simpler before I learned the whole truth. :D


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 8:09 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
thehousethatGodbuilt
Junior Member (Idle past 3600 days)
Posts: 3
From: Earth
Joined: 02-11-2009


Message 52 of 109 (498515)
02-11-2009 10:02 AM


The Kingdom of God is at hand! Make straight the path of the Lord!
God's Ambassador of the Kingdom of Heaven.
    
thehousethatGodbuilt
Junior Member (Idle past 3600 days)
Posts: 3
From: Earth
Joined: 02-11-2009


Message 53 of 109 (498518)
02-11-2009 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ramoss
09-19-2006 8:59 AM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
I would propose maybe a different viewpoint.

Exactly where do you think Christ is right now? If in your arguementation and presentation of your viewpoints, what if Christ returns in a way that you think not? Remember, Jesus came on the scene as an ANTHROPOS. Meaning, He was as much God as He was man.

He is so much man that when His mother came to Him saying the wine is all gone, He would refute her in saying, "woman, my time has not come." But, He is so much God that He would turn water into wine, and it would be the best last. He is so much man that when his friend died, He cried. But, He is so much God that He would command the friend to rise to the occasion and live! He is so much man that He would allow His physical body to suffer and die, but He is so much God that He got His own self up!

Nonetheless, He was reconsiling humanity! He came in a form that none would suppose, even though they knew the Scripture? He would come in a way and a means, a method and a type, a fact and a form that would blow even the religious leaders mind! So the question, would He come in a way that you think not?

So I ask, what if God came in a way that you would think not? One would do well to review Ephesians... Back it up with Colossians. and a hint of Thessalonians... But what do I know, this is God's! He is the King, I have no position.

But if you ask me, The King would have something to say...

An Ambassador for the Kingdom of God!


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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Nighttrain, posted 02-12-2009 6:51 AM thehousethatGodbuilt has responded
 Message 61 by jaywill, posted 03-27-2009 7:39 AM thehousethatGodbuilt has not yet responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2070 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 54 of 109 (498612)
02-12-2009 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by thehousethatGodbuilt
02-11-2009 10:14 AM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
Go preach somewhere else. Here we dissect, not waffle.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by thehousethatGodbuilt, posted 02-11-2009 10:14 AM thehousethatGodbuilt has responded

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thehousethatGodbuilt
Junior Member (Idle past 3600 days)
Posts: 3
From: Earth
Joined: 02-11-2009


Message 55 of 109 (498633)
02-12-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Nighttrain
02-12-2009 6:51 AM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
I think I will stick around. I enjoy hearing and listening to all.

The subject matter was concerning 2 Christs or 2 different times. Still reading the thread, and my response was based upon the information that was presented. This is not preaching, it is called being real!

But since you brought it up...God Bless You

An Ambassador for the Kingdom of God.


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 Message 54 by Nighttrain, posted 02-12-2009 6:51 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 56 of 109 (498723)
02-13-2009 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carbonstar
08-13-2006 2:10 PM


Melchizadek was a high priest AND a king in the days of Abraham

The scripture in psalm ("he'll come according to the manner of Melchizadek") gave the Hebrews reason to regard the promised Messiah as the one in whom the office of priest and king would be combined.

The apostle Paul, in Heb 6:20; 5:10; Identifies Jesus as the one in whom the scripture in Psalms is to be applied when he said "Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever."

So, High Priest & King

Jesus is both a King of Gods Kingdom and a High Priest who has authority to take sins away from the people.


This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2070 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 57 of 109 (498770)
02-13-2009 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Peg
02-13-2009 6:18 AM


Two Messiahs
Jesus is both a King of Gods Kingdom and a High Priest who has authority to take sins away from the people.

Since Jesus is NOT descended in the paternal line from either Aaron or David, how can he legitimately be high priest?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 6:18 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 12:19 AM Nighttrain has responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 58 of 109 (498892)
02-15-2009 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nighttrain
02-13-2009 6:55 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Hi Nighttrain,

Nighttrain writes:


Since Jesus is NOT descended in the paternal line from either Aaron or David, how can he legitimately be high priest?

what makes you think he was not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2009 6:55 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Nighttrain, posted 02-15-2009 4:28 AM Peg has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2070 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 59 of 109 (498899)
02-15-2009 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Peg
02-15-2009 12:19 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Nighttrain writes:

Since Jesus is NOT descended in the paternal line from either Aaron or David, how can he legitimately be high priest?

what makes you think he was not?


Unless I missed something, the biological 'father' of Jesus was the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 12:19 AM Peg has responded

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Peg
Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 60 of 109 (499287)
02-18-2009 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Nighttrain
02-15-2009 4:28 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
if you believe the holy ghost/spirit is a person, perhaps
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