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Author | Topic: How did Monkeys get to South America? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
How did new world monkeys get to South America?
I ask this question for both evolutionists and creationists. Creationists get a little help from God, how about evolutionists? Addendum 1 Let me please explain the dilemma. South America and Africa separated around 160 million years ago. The first mammals did not show up until 66 million years ago. The Oglicene period (about 45 million years ago) is when monkeys first appeared in South America. To explain this, evolutionists propose that monkeys, frogs, and some reptiles rafted to South America from Africa about 45 million or less years ago when the continents were supposedly closer together than the current distance of 1700 miles, though the journey for south america was already about 3/4 of the way done chronologically: Frogs rafted, too - john hawks weblog from source:
quote: Whoaaa and that comes from a scientist on the paleoanthropology payroll... Imagine monkeys having to cross the atlantic on a matt of moss and tree debris! They just drift listlessly at sea with no water for weeks, and perhaps months. How about this "raft story" that went 40 days and 40 nights:
So how did the world's animals get back to their former environments from Ararat? They just rafted..... Wow that made it a lot simpler! Edited by Engineer, : added addendum 1 Edited by Engineer, : No reason given. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
So you are not proposing a continental bridge across Antarctica, travel through North America, or a separate evolution for south american monkeys.
What would cause a mega-continent to hold together for so long and then suddenly (relatively speaking) drift thousands of miles apart? Also, such an explosive speciation timewise among all animals in South America including boas? Are there any species in South America that match species in Africa with the exception of humans and other plants and animals that could have "grown their way" or migrated across the Bering Straits? Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
your answer is the closest to current evolutionary views. I will restate the OP, becasue so many people are confusing the issues.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I don't know.
quote: I have some doubts about the ark theory, especially with animals crossing oceans to get to their present habitat after leaving the ark. Evolutionists assume they can raft however, and solve one of my most perplexing issues with ark theory.....
quote: Well, actually this evolutionary explanation kind of helps out the arkers. and how about a super-explosion of speciation after a so-called flood -- kind of like south america after the oglicene period but biggie-sized? That helps reduce the number of animals needed on board the ark.
quote: I'm not attacking it. I think it's kind of humorous actually. It seems evolutionists are doing the work for creationists and solving the creationists' problems.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I think it makes sense to clarify the OP because the responses were not connected very well. Maybe it's my fault for not stating the issues. I just assumed everyone knew them. For example:
quote: Say What??? Monkeys didn't show up in South America until the late Oglicene some 40 million years ago.
quote: So how close was South America to Africa in the late Oglicene? Were trade winds flowing from west to east as they do today, pushing floating debris to the east? http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/j/jet_stream.htm
quote: quote: ok I'm not a yec. South America was closer to Africa 40 million years ago, but they separated-apart some 160 million years ago (this is 4x as long). Wouldn't it be fair to assume south america was about 3/4 the distance from africa that it is today? What justifies it being closer? When Christopher Columbus sailed to America in a sea-worthy sailing vessel using a compass against the trade winds it took about a month. How well would a monkey-manned raft fare out on the big blue while crossing probably several hundred miles (or more) on sea currents which often follow coastlines, with no water to drink, while fighting off sea predators out there in the hot sun?
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: Salt water is no good to drink. I think you know this already.
quote: I assumed a sail boat is faster than rafting. How fast do you think an ocean current moves?
quote: Yeah, they had to make a round trip. You do have a point. Apparantly the return trip is easier, from the map. The evolution approach only requires monkeys and rodents on board.
quote: So who even needs an ark anymore? They can float on massive islands of debris.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: How about speciation on steroids? ;-)
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
thanks for putting that together. It was a lot of work I'm sure. So currently what is the rate of continental drift in South America? I think I can find it, but thought I'd ask anyway.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: Well I am sorry you are offended, but there are some hard-core evolutionists out there that think the raft theory borders on ridiculous. They propose, for example, multiple origin of monkeys from a common ancestor yet undiscovered. I know you don't like the tenor of my statements, but I hear the same kind of stuff from Jesus-Mythers (that say a teacher named Jesus never existed), no matter what I show them, and they are a heck of a lot less polite than I am. But that is not the subject of this post. I think it is humorous for evolutionists to defend a bunch of mindless monkeys on some freedom flotila bound for South America. The ocean is a harsh environment for seafarers. People don't survive very long on life rafts. Maybe monkeys can do better though. Edited by Engineer, : fixed typo.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I don't know the age of the earth whether it's ten thousand or 10 billion. I suspect it's a lot older than 10 thousand years though, unless the creator wants to deliberately trick people into thinking it's older. I don't think He's a trickster.
quote: Sorry, my in box is full. I don't mean to put you off. I'll have to discuss dogs with you someday, and why they can still breed with the australian dingo -- another topic.
quote: ok.
quote: As I've said, I don't know. I used to struggle with a young earth but I don't anymore.
quote: and miracles don't count for anything until you need one.
quote: I can agree to an older earth, and I don't have a dog in the fight (pun intended).
quote: no problemo.
quote: ok, but don't knock yourself out too hard. I'll listen but I'm kind of by myself here. Sorry to put you off. I appreciate the participation, but I need a secretary.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I'm not the only one to have issues with it. Some of your own have issues with it too.
quote: That's funny. You can't even believe a real jewish teacher existed 2000 years ago that maybe somebody exagerrated into superman. But 40 million years ago some monkeys got on a raft and sailed off to south america. Now you make me feel better, because you are extremely arrogant. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I said I don't know the age of the earth. I wasn't there. The scientific age of the earth has changed a lot in my short lifetime, or I'm a half billon years older now.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: If you want a photograph of someone that lived 2000 years ago, then I should ask the same for monkeys going to south america.
quote: not to mention that we are writing about hypothetical monkeys 40 million years later.
quote: likewise for monkeys on a flotilla.
quote: that's why faith is the same, but science keeps changing. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
I read kon tiki. The polynessions were very skilled seafarers with a little luck too.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5544 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
ok folks, I'm using this tectonic model to caluate the speed of Brasilia, Brazil relative to Brazzaville, Congo:
UNAVCO I get 12 mm/yr north. In 40 million years that would be a linear travel of: .12 cm/yr / [2.54 cm/in] / [12 in/ft] / [5250/ft/mile] * 40 x 10^6 years = 300 miles in 40 million years due north at linear speed. (*1) That doesn't do much for an east-west separation. I did not include any rotational components. Africa and South America are separated by at least 1700 miles. (*1) Math error is noted by Kuresu and corrected. 11:45 pm is past my bed time y'all. ;-) Edited by Engineer, : 12 mm is corrected to 1.2 cm
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