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Author Topic:   What is the benefit of ID.
robert4818
Junior Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 12-11-2008


Message 1 of 42 (491109)
12-11-2008 5:50 PM


This question is directed at proponents of ID. I already know the answer from those of us who trust in science.

What does the theory of ID offer science? How can it benefit our further understanding of the world?

Below are some key questions, followed by how they are answered from an evolution proponent standpoint. Evolutionists, if you have a better answer for any of the questions on an evolutionary side than I have, please feel free to answer them.

-What lines of inquiry does ID open up?
Understanding evolution opens up queries of change, How do the mechanics work? What forces of nature might have caused something to evolve in this direction?

-What other sciences can benefit from discoveries in ID? How?
Evolution can help out biology, by understanding "microevolution" and evolutionary algorithms you can predict how certain germs and viruses can adapt to treatments and become immune

-What potential new advances can be offered through an understanding of ID?
Through understanding of evolution and algorithms, we can take steps to avoid creating "superbugs." Evolution predicts that between related species a and c in the fossil record, we should be able to find species b, that will share characteristics of species a and c. Using this prediction knowing where A was in the fossil record, and where C was in the fossil record we can then test that theory by looking in between them to find B.

Edited by robert4818, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 42 (491112)
12-11-2008 6:21 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 3 of 42 (502161)
03-10-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robert4818
12-11-2008 5:50 PM


robert4818 writes:

What does the theory of ID offer science? How can it benefit our further understanding of the world?

im not an ID proponent, although I do believe in creation as opposed to evolution and personally i cant see the benefit of evolution in science...what does it do for us really? How does evolution help us?

As far as i can tell, ID is simply the acknowledgment of purposeful design in nature. I dont understand why scientists & evolutionists are so threatened by this proposal.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 42 (502166)
03-10-2009 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
03-10-2009 5:27 AM


im not an ID proponent, although I do believe in creation as opposed to evolution and personally i cant see the benefit of evolution in science...what does it do for us really? How does evolution help us?

This is, of course, off-topic, but here are some examples.

As far as i can tell, ID is simply the acknowledgment of purposeful design in nature. I dont understand why scientists & evolutionists are so threatened by this proposal.

This is, of course, off-topic. However, the reason that they are "threatened" (to use your quaint jargon) by creationist garbage is the same reason that they are "threatened" by the proposition that the earth is flat.

Because it's crap.

And, as 72 Nobel Prize winning scientists testified in Edwards v. Aguillard :

It sets up a false conflict between science and religion, misleads our youth about the nature of scientific inquiry, and thereby compromises our ability to respond to the problems of an increasingly technological world. Our capacity to cope with problems of food production, health care, and even national defense will be jeopardized if we deliberately strip our citizens of the power to distinguish between the phenomena of nature and supernatural articles of faith.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 641 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 42 (502167)
03-10-2009 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
03-10-2009 5:27 AM


The benefit of I.D., not evolutionary biology.
Peg writes:

im not an ID proponent, although I do believe in creation as opposed to evolution and personally i cant see the benefit of evolution in science...what does it do for us really? How does evolution help us?

How understanding evolution helps us might be an interesting topic, but it isn't this one, is it Peg?

Peg writes:

As far as i can tell, ID is simply the acknowledgment of purposeful design in nature.

And how does this "acknowledgement" help us? Can you think of anything to answer the topic? Did the belief that evil spirits cause diseases ever help anyone? It was (and is, in many poor, disease ridden parts of the world) a hypothesis that involves "the acknowledgement of purposeful design in nature".

My answer to the O.P. is that I can think of no way in which I.D. is of practical help to us.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 6 of 42 (502223)
03-10-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robert4818
12-11-2008 5:50 PM


The Benefit of ID
I can only see one slightly possible benefit of ID - the freedom of resources for other inquiries.

If...

(I need to take a second, this is pretty much the biggest "if" ever proposed by anyone, anywhere. Simple bolding, italicizing or increased font is not enough to stress how unimaginably large this "if" really is. Even this paragraph doesn't do this "if" justice in the unfathomable depths of its shadow)

...if ID can and is shown to be correct, no one would have to spend any more resources on trying to figure out "how all this works." Scientists could then all lay down their pencils and microscopes and shovels and telescopes. Grant money could all be stopped. The final answer on exactly how everything actually works would be known and there would be no further need for continued exploration into the subject.

That's all I can think of, anyway.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by hari, posted 03-10-2009 1:12 PM Stile has responded
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 03-11-2009 4:49 AM Stile has responded

    
hari
Junior Member (Idle past 3653 days)
Posts: 15
From: Harmandar
Joined: 03-10-2009


Message 7 of 42 (502243)
03-10-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
03-10-2009 11:51 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Other benefits for evolution – it provides corroborating evidence as to the age of the world for geology and cosmology, and opened a new way of thinking that is useful in other sciences, which arguably led to many advances.

...if ID can and is shown to be correct

As I understand it, ID seeks to prove the existence of an Intelligent Designer, aka God. If it succeeds, I think science would just carry on – interesting and useful research isn’t concerned with God one way or another. But it would have profound consequences for religion – here is the outline plot for a story to frighten kids in Sunday school.

It is set in the near future, and opens with scenes from churches, temples, etc. showing wide jubilation at the unbelievable:) success of ID in proving the existence of the Intelligent Designer.

Obviously there is no longer any need for faith in God, as everyone now knows for sure that He exists. Faith is limited to the existence of minor celebs such as angels and demons, along with the attributes of God, such as how good is He really, are priests necessary for communication with Him, what’s the most effective method of prayer, etc.

Each religion then tries to use the now proven ID methodology to empirically determine those attributes in detail, in the hope of bolstering their own claims and undermining others. Things get pretty heated during this phase.

A strong reactionary movement forms, centered on evolution, in an attempt to claw back faith, but with the cat out of the bag forever, all religions finally die out in favor of self-improvement books and conspiracy theories.

The denouement goes back to the ‘80s and reveals that the inventors of ID were actually a group of Baptist students (I'm a Baptist) pulling a prank that got out of hand.


Oh don't listen to me, I'm just a girl
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 8 of 42 (502251)
03-10-2009 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by hari
03-10-2009 1:12 PM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Heh

hari writes:

The denouement goes back to the ‘80s and reveals that the inventors of ID were actually a group of Baptist students (I'm a Baptist) pulling a prank that got out of hand.

I thought you were going to say it was actually invented by a group of atheists with the known intent of having "all religions finally die out." :)


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 42 (502323)
03-11-2009 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
03-10-2009 11:51 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Stile writes:

if ID can and is shown to be correct, no one would have to spend any more resources on trying to figure out "how all this works." Scientists could then all lay down their pencils and microscopes and shovels and telescopes. Grant money could all be stopped. The final answer on exactly how everything actually works would be known and there would be no further need for continued exploration into the subject.

but why would everything have to stop?

why would acknowledgment of ID mean scientists would all have to stop working?

that makes no sense.


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 Message 6 by Stile, posted 03-10-2009 11:51 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Vacate, posted 03-11-2009 5:22 AM Peg has responded
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 03-11-2009 7:44 AM Peg has responded

    
Vacate
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 10 of 42 (502325)
03-11-2009 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
03-11-2009 4:49 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
why would acknowledgment of ID mean scientists would all have to stop working?

How would a person know what is a puzzle to solve or a gap filled by a miracle? Even today when ID is most definitely not shown to be correct there is a large population of people who prefer declaring miracles over solving puzzles.

"Goddidit" is boring but its easy, cheap, and would mean the final answer on any particular subject.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 42 (502327)
03-11-2009 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Vacate
03-11-2009 5:22 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
but saying 'God did it' doesnt say 'How God did it'

surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it

why is it assumed that people would stop wanting to know how?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Huntard, posted 03-11-2009 5:59 AM Peg has responded
 Message 13 by Vacate, posted 03-11-2009 6:05 AM Peg has responded
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 03-11-2009 9:00 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Capt Stormfield, posted 03-11-2009 10:05 AM Peg has not yet responded
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 12 of 42 (502328)
03-11-2009 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
03-11-2009 5:48 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

but saying 'God did it' doesnt say 'How God did it'
surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it

why is it assumed that people would stop wanting to know how?


It's not that people don't WANT to know, it's that people CAN'T know.

God can do anything, anything at all, how are we to determine that god did something, if nothing is impossible?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 13 of 42 (502329)
03-11-2009 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
03-11-2009 5:48 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it

From my reading here and other sources the "how" appears to be self explanatory. Goddidit is the how, that's all there is to know.

I am interested in the questions posed in the OP because frankly I don't see an answer to them. ID poses God made miracles, miracles don't tell us much of anything.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 14 of 42 (502335)
03-11-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
03-11-2009 4:49 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

Stile writes:

if ID can and is shown to be correct, no one would have to spend any more resources on trying to figure out "how all this works."

but why would everything have to stop?

I answered that question with the part you quoted. If "how all this works" is equal to "God, as explained through ID," then there is nothing more to find. That is the "how." Everything would have to stop because there's nothing left to find. I suppose you could continue to search for an answer after you've already found it, but that seems really silly. Like continuing to look under the couch for your lost keys, even when you already know they're in your pocket. I'm just assuming that scientists are not insane.

Peg writes:

Stile writes:

Scientists could then all lay down their pencils and microscopes and shovels and telescopes. Grant money could all be stopped.

why would acknowledgment of ID mean scientists would all have to stop working?

I'm sorry, I got a bit carried away with my use of the word "all." I did not mean all scientists doing work on anything at all. I only meant all scientists who are currently doing work on the subjects that the proponents of ID say their theory explains through God (or "the designer").

Those resources could all be spent on other inquiries. Perhaps even other scientific inquiries.

So, if ID can and is shown to be correct, then those scientists working on the alternate secular explanations for those same subjects can all stop. Or, at least, move on to something else that is unrelated to "the theory" of ID (whatever that is...).


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18482
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 15 of 42 (502345)
03-11-2009 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
03-11-2009 5:48 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it

why is it assumed that people would stop wanting to know how?

In our experience, creationists never go beyond "God did it" to seek "How did God do it?" Do you have any examples of creationists seeking how God did it?

And shouldn't we be talking about an intelligent designer rather than God? I mean, isn't it kind of difficult to claim that intelligent design is science, not religion, when you equate the intelligent designer to God?

--Percy


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