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Author Topic:   What is the benefit of ID.
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 402
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 16 of 42 (502356)
03-11-2009 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
03-11-2009 5:48 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
but saying 'God did it' doesnt say 'How God did it'

surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it

why is it assumed that people would stop wanting to know how?

Careful, Pegster, you're drifting awfully close to understanding the question, and by extension, the difference between fantasy and reality.

Capt.


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Replies to this message:
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hari
Junior Member (Idle past 3653 days)
Posts: 15
From: Harmandar
Joined: 03-10-2009


Message 17 of 42 (502388)
03-11-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
03-11-2009 5:48 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it

Iím also with you on this. Isaac Newton knew Goddidit all along and it never stopped him

quote:
Ö Newton emphasised the absolute power of God, noting that God was worthy of being worshipped not because of any infinite physical qualities He possessed, but because He was the Creator, Lord and omnipresent Master of the cosmos. Indeed, beyond pointing to his omniscience and omnipotence, and the fact that God really did exist in some physical but incomprehensible manner, Newton preferred neither to dwell on God's metaphysical properties nor with the matter of His physical relationship with His Creation.

http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/prism.php?id=76



Oh don't listen to me, I'm just a girl
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hari
Junior Member (Idle past 3653 days)
Posts: 15
From: Harmandar
Joined: 03-10-2009


Message 18 of 42 (502402)
03-11-2009 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Capt Stormfield
03-11-2009 10:05 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Newton also said this about para-science in his Seven Statements on Religion (Philosophy=natural philosophy=science)

quote:
1 That religion & Philosophy are to be preserved distinct. We are not to introduce divine revelations into Philosophy, nor philosophical opinions into religion.

text
original



Oh don't listen to me, I'm just a girl
This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 42 (502530)
03-12-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by hari
03-11-2009 12:27 PM


Re: The Benefit of ID
hari writes:

We are not to introduce divine revelations into Philosophy, nor philosophical opinions into religion.

i love this point

shame nobody followed his advice on that one lol


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 42 (502531)
03-12-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Huntard
03-11-2009 5:59 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Huntard writes:

It's not that people don't WANT to know, it's that people CAN'T know.

God can do anything, anything at all, how are we to determine that god did something, if nothing is impossible?

could you please rephrase that for little ol me

What Can we not know???


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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 21 of 42 (502532)
03-12-2009 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Vacate
03-11-2009 6:05 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Vacate writes:

I am interested in the questions posed in the OP because frankly I don't see an answer to them. ID poses God made miracles, miracles don't tell us much of anything.

I didnt attempt to answer these questions because Im not an ID proponent, but since this thread begun i've been reading up on it.

quote:
-What lines of inquiry does ID open up?

It opens up the possibility of an Almighty Creator...something that is greatly lacking in this world. Many people have lost faith in God and this is a direct result of the Church's failure to defend itself from such teachings as Evolution. They failed miserably, not because the bible is false, but because the church's dont understand it and so have taught many erroneous teachings ie 'the earth is the center of the universe'...Galileo proved this wrong and in doing so, he unwittingly put doubt about the church & bible into peoples minds

The church's were glaringly wrong and so their authority began to be challenged and the result is that today many people have left the church and have a lack of faith in the bible and in God and most definitely in religion.

that lack of faith and belief coincides with a very definite fall in standards, morals, values and purpose in life for many. Without hope, our life is not a very happy one and society is showing evidence of this.

ID is something that can build faith in a God and give people hope again. That can only be a good thing for society as a whole.

quote:
-What other sciences can benefit from discoveries in ID? How?

Biomimetics! the aim of biomimetrics is to produce more complex materials and machines by imitating nature. The airplane uses the same mechanism as birds to to take flight for example...we've benefited by looking at the apparent design of living things and we've benefited from them.

Perhaps there are newer technologies that we have yet to discover but are being used in nature right now. looking for the intelligent design in nature may lead to many more amazing inventions.

quote:
-What potential new advances can be offered through an understanding of ID?

If we acknowledge Intelligence & Design in nature and actually look hard for it, perhaps we can learn to imitate how it manufactures its products without causing pollution, and they tend to be resilient and light, yet incredibly strong. In an age of climate change, we need now more then ever before to know how to produce products that biodegrade or products that can be reused, not only by us, but by the environment as well.

Everything in nature does this.... perhaps we can too.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 42 (502533)
03-12-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
03-11-2009 7:44 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Stile writes:

I answered that question with the part you quoted. If "how all this works" is equal to "God, as explained through ID," then there is nothing more to find. That is the "how." Everything would have to stop because there's nothing left to find. I suppose you could continue to search for an answer after you've already found it, but that seems really silly. Like continuing to look under the couch for your lost keys, even when you already know they're in your pocket. I'm just assuming that scientists are not insane.

i dont agree.

Lets say i want to know how to make a cake. I see a cake on the bench and mum says 'I made that cake'

I still want to know HOW she made it. Its not going to stop me from wanting to know how, just because i know she made it.

Its the same with nature. Just because we may know that God made these things, does not mean we are not interested in how he made them or how they operate.

Stile writes:

So, if ID can and is shown to be correct, then those scientists working on the alternate secular explanations for those same subjects can all stop.

that sounds like a fantastic idea. Perhaps they could work on more important issues like a cure for cancer, cure for aids, fixing the worlds food shortage crisis, developing clean technologies so industry can stop burning fossil fuels and the list goes on and on

lets spend more time on important issues i say

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 23 of 42 (502539)
03-12-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
03-12-2009 6:55 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

could you please rephrase that for little ol me


Of course.

What Can we not know???

How god made everything. There is no difference between god using evolution to make life diversify, or god personally intervening and changing the species, but making it look like evolution did it.

Likewise there is no difference between how gravity works, instead of god using angels to make it appear this is how gravity works.

That's why "goddidit" can never be an explanation.


I hunt for the truth
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 24 of 42 (502540)
03-12-2009 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Huntard
03-12-2009 7:58 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
'we cannot know how God made everything'

You could be right.

For a person of faith, it doesnt really matter how he made things, only that he did make them. Giving credit where credit is due is the all important thing in my opinion.

however, i doubt that God would want us to stop wondering... it seems he made us with the ability to also create things and therefore my guess is that our sense of curiosity will always win over and we will always search for the answers.

I think he would want it that way.


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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 25 of 42 (502541)
03-12-2009 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
03-12-2009 7:34 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

Lets say i want to know how to make a cake. I see a cake on the bench and mum says 'I made that cake'

I still want to know HOW she made it. Its not going to stop me from wanting to know how, just because i know she made it.

Its the same with nature. Just because we may know that God made these things, does not mean we are not interested in how he made them.

I agree with you. But this has nothing to do with ID.

The ID people are saying that their explanation is "how your mom made the cake."

So, if ID can and is shown to be true, then we'll already know "how the cake was made" and there will be nothing left to pursue.

I don't think your quarral is with me.
I think your quarral is with the ID people who claim that their idea shows "how the cake was made."

Obviously, if the ID people aren't claiming this, they wouldn't have any problem with science continuing it's work. But they do have such a problem. Perhaps you don't... but other "ID" people certainly do. Your quarral is likely with telling those people that they don't know what they're talking about. Which is what science has been trying to tell them for 80+ years now. But good luck to you :)

that sounds like a fantastic idea. Perhaps they could work on more important issues like a cure for cancer, cure for aids, fixing the worlds food shortage crisis, developing clean technologies so industry can stop burning fossil fuels and the list goes on and on

lets spend more time on important issues i say

Um... I think you forgot this part:

Message 6

Stile writes:

If...

(I need to take a second, this is pretty much the biggest "if" ever proposed by anyone, anywhere. Simple bolding, italicizing or increased font is not enough to stress how unimaginably large this "if" really is. Even this paragraph doesn't do this "if" justice in the unfathomable depths of its shadow)

...if ID can and is shown to be correct...

That's a really big "if" we need to get past first. As long as that "if" is not realized... then these secular resources are being spent on "important issues" that have a very high chance of leading to helpful discoveries in the exact areas you mentioned.


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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 26 of 42 (502543)
03-12-2009 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peg
03-12-2009 8:06 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

however, i doubt that God would want us to stop wondering... it seems he made us with the ability to also create things and therefore my guess is that our sense of curiosity will always win over and we will always search for the answers.

I think he would want it that way.


Then why make it impossible for us to know the answers? Does he like playing games like that? That's not very nice of him.

For example, all the evidence we have right now points to evolution being the cause of the diversity of life we see. But what if it wasn't evolution? What if it was god directly intervening and changing the species into what the environment desired? How are we ever to know this if there's nothing that can ever point in that direction, because everything points to evolution. And then, when we are asked how life diversified, it is OUR fault we don't say "goddidit"? Why would he do it like that?


I hunt for the truth
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 27 of 42 (502545)
03-12-2009 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Stile
03-12-2009 8:10 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
The ID people are saying that their explanation is "how your mom made the cake."
So, if ID can and is shown to be true, then we'll already know "how the cake was made" and there will be nothing left to pursue.
I don't think your quarral is with me.
I think your quarral is with the ID people who claim that their idea shows "how the cake was made."

Yeah, i dont really know what their goal is to be honest. They dont seem to be trying to prove the existence of God becasue they seem to stay away from that prospect.

they must have an agenda...anyone know what that might be?


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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 28 of 42 (502546)
03-12-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peg
03-12-2009 8:06 AM


Another Benefit?
Peg writes:

For a person of faith, it doesnt really matter how he made things, only that he did make them.

I would simply change the word "doesn't" to "shouldn't."
I agree with you, but there certainly are a great many "people of faith" that think such a thing really does matter a great deal. (For reasons that I wish I could understand).

Giving credit where credit is due is the all important thing in my opinion.

I agree completely.
I'm still trying to figure out where, exactly, the credit is due. It may be due to no one. It may be due to God... but there's nothing unequivically pointing in God's direction for this.

however, i doubt that God would want us to stop wondering... it seems he made us with the ability to also create things and therefore my guess is that our sense of curiosity will always win over and we will always search for the answers.

I think he would want it that way.

Again, I agree completely. If God doesn't want us to stop wondering, then He is a worthy God indeed. Especially if He also gave us our curious brains and stuff.

Sometimes I wonder if God's greatest "test of life" is to see if it's possible for some of us to not believe in Him, and still find the strength to follow all the important virtues He stands for.

One who believes and follows the virtures requires strength.
One who doesn't beleive and yet still follows the virtures requires even more strength.

The important part, of course, would be to "follow the virtues." So there wouldn't be any reward or intended path or anything like that.

It would just be nice if, at the end of it all, someone was there to say "hey, nice job."

Of course, that may just be my pride talking... in which case, I'm not following the virtues :)

Perhaps that's one more practical, existing benefit of ID. Maybe its benefit is to show a path that is definitely the wrong route. It doesn't quite give us a guide, but one less piece of hay makes it slightly easier to find the needle.

Edited by Stile, : Removed an awfully confusing double negative


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Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 29 of 42 (502547)
03-12-2009 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peg
03-12-2009 8:23 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Peg writes:

they must have an agenda...anyone know what that might be?

Yes, we have a pretty good clue :)

Apparently, their agenda is to "get everyone to act exactly like they do." For some reason that's incredibly important to them. So important that they'll try deception in order to get into schools so they can reach a multitude of young-minds for the only purpose of "getting more people to act exactly like they do."

No one has a problem with religion.
People just have a problem with other folk who think they're entitled to a bit too much control.


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 Message 27 by Peg, posted 03-12-2009 8:23 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 30 of 42 (502548)
03-12-2009 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Huntard
03-12-2009 8:15 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Huntard writes:

all the evidence we have right now points to evolution being the cause of the diversity of life we see. But what if it wasn't evolution? What if it was god directly intervening and changing the species into what the environment desired?

well lets say that is how God did it (this is not what i believe) then perhaps our inquiry and years of study has given us the answers we desire.

If thats not how it happened, then perhaps we ourselves are misreading the evidence. You know there was a time when geologists were finding Ice Ages at every stage of the geological time table, but in our century, with a better understanding of things, geologists realized that there were not as many ice ages as previously thought. In fact the earlier geologists were reading the 'evidence' incorrectly.

Perhaps one day we will have more explanation of the old fossils we find and will realize that evolution was not the way life arose at all.

Huntard writes:

And then, when we are asked how life diversified, it is OUR fault we don't say "goddidit"? Why would he do it like that?

God has told us how he did it. The genesis account clearly states that he created each animal 'according to its kind'

this does not mean that every species alive today had to be created individually because, thanks to the genes, animals of a 'kind' or 'type' can diversify without intervention. We see that in the many breeds of Dogs and horses and cats for example. We can create new breeds of these animals thru selective breeding.

who's to say that this cannot happen also in nature thru environmental factors such as isolation for example. If we were to put a male and female dog on an island and leave them there to breed for a few hundred years, we'd come back and find a completely new 'type' or 'breed' of dog.

Perhaps we are reading the 'evidence' for evolution, incorrectly.


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