Christian Laws

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PD, have you collated your own list of laws from the NT?

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Remember, my position is that there aren't any Christian Laws. Christianity does not have a legal system.Jesus and his disciples followed Jewish Law and whatever Roman Laws that applied. Members of The Way, followed Jewish Law and whatever Roman Laws that applied.Paul followed Jewish and Roman Laws.Greek Christians followed the laws of the land that applied to them. I assume Roman Laws.These are all legal systems they were required to follow.You are the one who said: To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. Message 6The list is yours to provide, not mine.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

of course they obeyed the laws of the land, but how do you explain this...

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"27So they brought them and stood them in the San'he.drin hall. And the high priest questioned them 28and said: "We positively ordered YOU not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! YOU have filled Jerusalem with YOUR teaching, and YOU are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us." 29In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29)

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so here they are before the highest law court in the land, they've been given an order to stop preaching, Yet they refuse to obeyDo you really believe they viewed mans law (law of the land) above Gods law? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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so here they are before the highest law court in the land, they've been given an order to stop preaching, Yet they refuse to obey

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Do you really believe they viewed mans law (law of the land) above Gods law?

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You did read more than that sentence I hope.The verse isn't dealing with laws. The story does not imply that the apostles broke any local laws. The apostles were ordered by the members of the Sanhedrin to not teach in Jesus' name. The angel of the Lord who freed them from jail told them to continue teaching. So they had a choice of obeying God's orders delivered by the angel or the Sanhedrin.I think it is a common understanding that a direct order from God overrides everything, even his own commands. Although God made it clear in Genesis that man should not kill man (Genesis 9:6), God ordered Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering (Genesis 22), which means Abraham would have had to kill his son to comply. Granted, God reversed the order, but the original order contradicted his earlier command.As I said, the verse isn't dealing with laws Man's or God's.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

are you saying that when a court produces an order, ie a 'court order', the recipient is not required by law to comply with the order?

Christians at this forum would be pleased to give you a list from the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, but you seem to reject His words.Why not give us your list, if you have one?

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are you saying that when a court produces an order, ie a 'court order', the recipient is not required by law to comply with the order?

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No, I'm saying the point of the ancient story up to that point was not about any legal system. It was not about man's laws vs God's laws. It was about who is in charge.God commanded them to teach. He didn't give them a new law.I think, from the plain text, the point of the whole story was that the apostles were persecuted.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

it was more then just a story...its an historical record of the events that surrounded the apostles.They were called before the court, they were ordered to stop preaching by the high court of the land and the apostles refused to obey. Later the romans made christianity 'illegal' and outlawed the religion in throughout the whole roman empire...they were burning people alive for being christian because it was a capital offense.do you think that the christians obeyed that law of the land?'we must obey God as ruler rather then man' is what they said.

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'we must obey God as ruler rather then man' is what they said.

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As I said, the story is about who is in charge.The Sadducees were disturbed by what the Apostles were preaching (Chapter 4) and they were jealous (Chapter 5). The story doesn't say they broke a law. They followed God's direct order and not the Sadducees.Now since God is ruler, then Christians would only be following those laws that came directly from God, not inspired known and unknown authors who don't claim to be messengers of God.

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Later the romans made christianity 'illegal' and outlawed the religion in throughout the whole roman empire...they were burning people alive for being christian because it was a capital offense.

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do you think that the christians obeyed that law of the land?

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No, they didn't if the law required them to get special approval or a license from the government. Paul says Chritians are to obey authorities. So it seems Christians are free to disobey authorities when they feel they have a direct order from God.Of course this thread isn't about whether God's laws are more important than man's laws. Your task is to list Christian Laws or God's Laws. If God's laws are more important then you should know what they are.Why the difficulty?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

(You said - Was there a time when you realized that there was some difference in the Old Testament Law keeping and the New Testament walk according to the Spirit?Do you recall when that truth first really impressed you? For I think it is natural for us to think we have to grit our teeth and be good people according to our natural strength.)I don't like to combine New Testament and law keeping in the same sentence for the exact reason you mentioned. The temptation to seek to please God by my own effort has been a pitfall for me from my early days of my Christian life. I am reminded of John 1:17 - "The law was given by Moses. Grace and reality came by Jesus Christ." I think the footnote on this verse in the Recovery Verion of the NT brings out the essence of the new covenant - "The law makes demands on us according to what God is. Grace supplies us with what God is to meet what God demands."(P.S. I don't know how to use this site to put in the nice quotes.)

but these Sadducees, who were in charge and were the lawmakers, made the order for the apostles to stop preaching about jesus. This is why Paul spent over 3 years in jail.He was on trial for doing what he was ordered to stop doing. He was breaking the law of the land. Not that it was a law prior to this, but the Sanhedrin got together and outlawed christianity.So now there was a law that the Apostles were breaking. You keep saying that christians were only required to follow the laws of the land....as I said before, the laws of the land are to be followed ONLY when they do not contradict Gods laws.therefore Christians must have had their own laws...otherwise why is Paul disobeying the law of the land? there is no difficulty for me...im quite aware of what the laws are. I've even stated many of them which you've doubted to be laws.There are 3 reasons why you do not see what christian laws are and i've posted them here from your' comments: So firstly, you dont trust the authority of the bible writers. So why would you accept anything they say...perhaps this is why you dont accept the scriptures as a basis for christian laws?secondly, you've said that principles and standards are not laws in themsleves. However, i've stated that Jesus taught the principles behind the mosaic laws. This means that when he expounded the meanings of the mosaic laws, and made principles out of them, those principles have laws as their foundation. Therefore the principle is a law because it is derived from Gods laws.and thirdly, Yes, we are told to obey the laws of the land, but not if they contradict Gods laws. The laws of the land are not the standard for a christian to gain Gods favor. Nor will be be judged by our obedience to the laws of the land.
We will be judged by our obedience to Gods laws.The only place you'll find them is in the scriptures, so if you dont accept the scriptures as authoritative enough, then I cant tell you any more because all of my posts are based on the scriptures which you do not accept as authoritative. you separate the two because you dont accept that the writers were inspired, right?perhaps this thread should end here and a new one started to discuss how we know that the writers were inspired and given authority to teach Gods laws??

I would be interested in such a thread. I too question how people know, or think they know which parts of the Bible are inspired. What tests do we use to tell? Can such a claim be testable?

they are good questions because the writers of both the hebrew and greek scriptures claimed to be inspired by God, so its certainly worthy of examinationespecially for people with doubts about the trustworthiness of the writers themselves...or weather the writings themselves are authentic.

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but these Sadducees, who were in charge and were the lawmakers, made the order for the apostles to stop preaching about jesus. This is why Paul spent over 3 years in jail.

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I'm addressing a specific story you referenced with a question. The story in Acts does not include Paul. Again the issue of the story is about who is in charge and persecution, not the legal system. Through the angel, the apostles were given an order from God. They weren't referring to a law.

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So now there was a law that the Apostles were breaking. You keep saying that christians were only required to follow the laws of the land....as I said before, the laws of the land are to be followed ONLY when they do not contradict Gods laws.

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Then we must know what laws are actually God's! List them!In Message 256 I didn't speak of what they were only required to do for God, I spoke of what they seemed to do in practical application per the NT authors. IOW, day to day living.From what you have shown so far, I still contend that Christianity today does not have a legal system. Specifically from Message 114: There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before.People, whether part of a religion or religion free, are required to follow the laws of the their country or countries they visit. How those laws are made vary by country. Christians should be pulling their principles of behavior from the spirit of the Bible writers. Specifically from Message 114: We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.Since mankind changes and civilizations evolve, the spirit of the message is the most that can be applied to current situations. The letter of ancient laws don't automatically fit into a current culture. Even the laws of early America don't necessarily fit current American culture. Laws are constantly changing to adjust to the needs of a changing society.

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therefore Christians must have had their own laws...otherwise why is Paul disobeying the law of the land?

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Provide the verse that deals with Paul's issue and I'll address it.

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there is no difficulty for me...im quite aware of what the laws are. I've even stated many of them which you've doubted to be laws.

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Some were Jewish laws and other were just general principles. You haven't been able to show why something is a legal law of God.

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So firstly, you dont trust the authority of the bible writers. So why would you accept anything they say...perhaps this is why you dont accept the scriptures as a basis for christian laws?

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Some Bible writers had authority to make laws and some didn't. So explain why these authors, known and unknown, have the authority to make a legal law? Inspiration is not authority.

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secondly, you've said that principles and standards are not laws in themsleves. However, i've stated that Jesus taught the principles behind the mosaic laws. This means that when he expounded the meanings of the mosaic laws, and made principles out of them, those principles have laws as their foundation. Therefore the principle is a law because it is derived from Gods laws.

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That's per the dictionary, not me. Message 6
I agree that Jesus taught the spirit behind the Jewish Laws as I've been saying: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. Message 114A principle based on a law doesn't automatically make the principle a law.Love you neighbor as yourself is supposedly the spirit of the Mosaic Laws, which are the details or the letter.If that principle is now a law, what then are the details or the letter?Do we then go back to the ancient laws for the details?Whether you like it or not a legal system does need to be specific so that all are clear on what is expected. No guesswork. Love is not specific. Abiding is not specific.Of we hope that we got the spirit right considering the writings are centuries old, tampered with, translated from dead languages, etc.

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and thirdly, Yes, we are told to obey the laws of the land, but not if they contradict Gods laws. The laws of the land are not the standard for a christian to gain Gods favor. Nor will be be judged by our obedience to the laws of the land.
We will be judged by our obedience to Gods laws.

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And now we are back to the beginning. I've said several times, this isn't about gaining God's favor. This is about your last sentence in the quote: We will be judged by our obedience to God's Laws. I've been asking you to list the laws that Christians will be judge against and explain why they are God's laws as opposed to anyone elses.

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The only place you'll find them is in the scriptures, so if you dont accept the scriptures as authoritative enough, then I cant tell you any more because all of my posts are based on the scriptures which you do not accept as authoritative.

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Not a good excuse for not listing the laws.

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you separate the two because you dont accept that the writers were inspired, right?

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I've agreed wholeheartedly that writers are inspired, but inspiration is not dictation and the NT writers were not considered scripture if you are referring to the 2 Tim comment concerning inspiration.So either you believe what the writers said or you don't.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

You will be judged by your obedience to the one whom God sent, as is declared by Jesus,

Richh, So glad to see you participating.The way I put something into quotes is to begin it with a Left Bracket, a qs, and a Right Bracket. Then at the end a Left Bracket, a forward slash, a qs, and a Right Bracket.I think if you look to the left you will see something that says "HTML On {help)". That should be a primer on using some basic HTML directives. I find that I am so prone to try to put forth self effort, that it takes a long time for me to realize before Jesus that I don't have a chance.For some reason the urge to "Turn over a New Leaf" without depending on Christ in a moment by moment way, is very strong. Even some limited success in this is not to my advantage. But letting go of self effort and calling on the name of Jesus - empowering grace flows through me.Why is it so much preferable to go it out of piety than to turn to the Christ in the realm of the Holy Spirit ? We just have too many things other than Christ.Doesn't it require His mercy to let go and let God ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.