RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 15 of 16 (523393)
09-09-2009 9:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by mick
05-20-2008 2:47 AM
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Revived, ressusicated thread
Hi mick, it has been suggested that we bring a similar debate from another thread here: In response to Message 428 from the Two wrongs don't make a right (the (ir)rationality of revenge) - also gun control thread:
quote:
Hi Hyroglyphx, lets try to keep the facts straight eh?
Eh???? You've never heard of the Six-Day War? Of course. Another example of Israeli aggression. From your link:
quote:
The Six-Day War of June 5-10, 1967 was a war between the Israel army and the armies of the neighboring states of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The Arab states of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms.[6] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day. Following numerous border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbours, particularly Syria, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula in May 1967.[7] The peacekeeping force had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt which was launched during the Suez Crisis.[8] Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[9] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.[10] The Israeli cabinet decided to launch a general offensive on May 23, immediately upon receiving the news that the straits would be closed.
Started by Israel, yes? In 1967, yes? MANY years after Israel was formed, yes? In response to what? Egypt's response to an invasion of Egypt, an invasion that Israel willingly participated in, yes? Israeli armed aggression keeps taking chunks of arab lands by force, and you think arabs are the only ones at fault, that Israel is only defending their rights? Please, take off the blinders. Israel - Wikipedia
quote:
Israel ... is a developed state in Western Asia located on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon in the north, Syria in the northeast, Jordan in the east, and Egypt on the southwest, and contains geographically diverse features within its relatively small area.[5]
There's the four existing neighbors, now identified for you folk. Now if anyone can provide documents that 3 or 4 vowed to destroy Israel ... then this would apply to the statement by Legend that I am contesting:
Message 331
Legend writes: Most of Israel's neigbours (and some of its own citizens) are opposed to the state's existence and have vowed to destroy it. Bold for emphasis. So far, all I have seen is that armed aggression begets armed aggression, and that Israels policy of two eyes for every eye has led to increased aggression. I've also suggested that people provide evidence from when Israel was first formed. Many think it was formed by the UN following the second world war, but this is not quite correct: British Mandate of Palestine - Wikipedia
quote:
The Palestine Mandate,[1] or Mandate for Palestine,[2] or British Mandate of Palestine was a legal instrument for the administration of Palestine formally approved by the League of Nations in June 1922, based on a draft by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalized British rule in Palestine from 1917-1948. The preamble of the mandate declared:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[3]
The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[4]
The borders of the British Mandate included what is now Israel and Jordan:
With Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Arabia as the original neighbors. The original UN 1947 proposed partition was British Mandate of Palestine - Wikipedia
http://www.ontheissues.org/Background_War_+_Peace.htm
quote:
1948: The UN partitioned British Palestine into a Jewish state (Israel) and an Arab state (Palestine). Six Arab countries declared war on Israel; Israel survived with borders different than those drawn by the UN; these are now known as the "pre-1967 borders." Palestine did not survive; the East Bank and West Bank of the Jordan River were taken over by Jordan, and the Gaza Strip was taken over by Egypt. Many Palestinians became refugees in the 1948 war; they have still not been resettled and are the subject of the current debate on "right of return."
Notice that modern Israel is larger than the original partition size, that most of what was Palestine has really been taken over by Jordan, and that Israel has increased it's borders since then, and they continue to make enemies rather than friends. Enjoy.
That lays out the brief history of Israel. The response was Message 431quote:
Hi Hyroglyphx, lets try to keep the facts straight eh? This is grossly off-topic. I just wanted to clear the matter up as you posed it. I was just answering your question the way you posed it. The way your question was framed was that no one until modern-day terror groups have opposed Israel, which, of course, is an absurdity. Almost the entire Middle East tried to oust the Jews before, during and after the State of Israel was formed.
Another example of Israeli aggression. The UN lawfully gave Israel the state of Israel through the Balfour Declaration. If you'll recall, the British empire seized what is now Israel/Palestine from the now defunct Ottoman empire. After the Holocaust there were several propositions made for where to place the displaced Jews. No one wanted them there. Giving them back the land from which they came from seemed the most reasonable thing. They were then attacked by a multitude of nations who resisted their presence in the Middle East. What exactly should the young Israeli's have done? Let them kill them? I don't think that any one in that entire debacle, either Jews or Muslims are completely guiltless in any thing. Each have their share of "aggression."
My response was Message 437quote:
Hi Hyroglyphx,
This is grossly off-topic. The topic is Two wrongs don't make a right (the (ir)rationality of revenge) - also (rather than just) gun control, so I see the whole issue of the middle east actually being on target and on topic as a PRIME example of the irrationality of revenge. It's why we still have problems in that area.
I was just answering your question the way you posed it. The way your question was framed was that no one until modern-day terror groups have opposed Israel, which, of course, is an absurdity. No, the question was in response to a comment by Legend. This is the second or third time I have pointed this out, and this is significant because without that comment you don't have the context of my question. The question is NOT about what countries opposed Israel's formation, but which neighbors vowed to destroy it. When you talk about Hezbollah, the problem is (1) they were formed long after Israel declared independence, which was long after the joint jewish & palestinian state was formed following WW1, and (2) it was formed in response to specific aggression by Israel. The modern state of Iran (which you tried to use earlier, when I pointed out to you before that you were off track on your response) is also not applicable because (a) they are not neighbors and (b) they did not have that government when Israel was formed. To answer the question is easy: provide documentation from 1948 of a THEN neighbor that vowed to destroy Israel. It's a small point, but I insist on accurate historical documented information, not just Faux News Sound Bites. If the claims were made, you should be able to find them.
After the Holocaust there were several propositions made for where to place the displaced Jews. No one wanted them there. Giving them back the land from which they came from seemed the most reasonable thing. This is a common misunderstanding. Let me repeat my last post on this so you can have another go at the facts: British Mandate of Palestine - Wikipedia
quote:
The Palestine Mandate,[1] or Mandate for Palestine,[2] or British Mandate of Palestine was a legal instrument for the administration of Palestine formally approved by the League of Nations in June 1922, based on a draft by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalized British rule in Palestine from 1917-1948. The preamble of the mandate declared:Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[3] The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[4]
That's 1917, after WW1 NOT 1948 after WW2. What was objected to in 1948 was the mass immigration of thousands of jews from around the world, and the (brand new) UN partitioning of Palestine.
Legend writes: Message 331 ... Most of Israel's neigbours (and some of its own citizens) are opposed to the state's existence and have vowed to destroy it. ... Now, can anyone document which of Israel's (four) neighbors have vowed to destroy Israel? Or is this another example of Faux News type hyperbole and exaggeration of a conflict that is perpetuated and empowered by Israel's policy of revenge.
They were then attacked by a multitude of nations who resisted their presence in the Middle East. What exactly should the young Israeli's have done? Let them kill them? The question is whether Israels policies are perpetuating the conflict, rather than leading to a solution. I say they are perpetuating it. The evidence is as simple as the fact that Hezbollah did not exist until many years after Israel was formed, and that the policies of Israel led directly to the formation of Hezbollah, and today lead directly to new recruits every year. Enjoy.
The question I pose for this thread: is the war in the middle east perpetuated by Israels aggressive tactics? In contrast we see the Northern Ireland "troubles" resolved by putting the guns down and coming to a political solution. In contrast we see the movement for independence of India being won by non-violent means, a political solution without bloodshed. Enjoy.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by mick, posted 05-20-2008 2:47 AM | | mick has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by onifre, posted 09-11-2009 1:22 PM | | RAZD has seen this message but not replied |
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