Logical fallicies in the bible

Mark24 writes:
"All you have to do to go to heaven is accept Jesus et al. Possibly repent as well."This is true.Mark24:
"The point being, that if you do that, then you do NOT need to pay for murder. . ."This is where you go wrong. If someone murders another person, BUT they have accepted Christ, they will not pay for murder in Heaven (like you said). They WILL, though, have serious secular consequences (of course these are meaningless compared to going to Heaven, but. . .).Mark24:
". . .but someone who doesn't do these things gets cast in the pit for all eternity, despite living their lives doing good things."Everyone has done "these things." Yes, on earth, murder or rape is a far greater crime than, say, lusting or swearing, but sin is sin. Also, Matthew 5:21 says, "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment." So, while you have not committed murder in a worldly sense, you have in a spiritual sense (we all have). There is a similar passage for adultery as well.My point here is that some may seem to be be leading "better" lives than others (i.e. doing more good things, doing less bad things), but we all miss the mark. It's like a batting average: if I go 3 for 3, but then on my fourth at bat, I strike out, I can never again have a 1.000 batting average. I could go 200 for 200 after this (and have a better batting average than any other player ever) but I will still never have a perfect batting average. And sans Jesus, only perfection is allowed into Heaven.

Yaro:
". . .why should the child molester who . . . repents on his deathbed go to heaven. Yet some amazon indian. . .who never hurt a fly, go to hell?"I just answered this, seriously. I'll reiterate. The child molester was not more guilty of sin (spiritually speaking) than the Amazon Indian (is there such a person?). Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Therefore, no matter how much greater one seems than the other on earth, they are both equally guilty of sin in Heaven (this sucks, basically).Yaro:
"If we can do no right, then what is the point of life? What is the point of this world? Is it some sort of spiritual lottery?"First off, we can do "right." We do plenty of it, too. We just happen to do "wrong" as well. These "wrongs" lead to death. Romans 6:23a says, "For the wages of sin is death" (spiritual death in this case--eternal separation from God; Hell). The point of life and this world was for us to have a purposeful, interactive relationship with God, but instead we sinned, turning our backs from God. It is not some sort of spiritual lottery. The second half of Romans 6:23 says, "but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This means that if one accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he (it's just easier to write he, sorry) will go to Heaven. Also, we are not held accountable for our sins -past, present, and future- because that is why Christ died. Christ paid for our sins, so all we have to do is acknowledge this and accept him. There is no lottery here; it is a personal decision to accept Christ or not (the latter having serious consequences, in my opinion).Yaro:
"What is the point of this world, if nothing we can do in it can gain us heaven?"Now there is something we can do to gain Heaven. We can accept Christ. Without him, we would all be doomed.Yaro:
"Why the pain?"Pain is a result of our sin.The Candyland analogy is a little off. It is not just pure luck, as I have explained.Finally, I would like to say that accepting Christ or not is your personal decision. I do not mean to condemn everyone who hasn't accepted him--that is just plain wrong. As a man (young man?) of Christ, I feel I am called to love others as Christ has loved me. Some people have questions that need to be answered in order for them to do so; others just plain don't believe in God. Whatever the case is, I respect your decision. I just pray that you might one day accept Christ.

Sorry for the TRIPLE post. I had some problems with my computer. If an administrator could delete this post and the next, it would be greatly appreciated.[This message has been edited by phil, 09-02-2003]

sorry.[This message has been edited by phil, 09-02-2003]

That is a very good question. I believe (and there is Scripture to back me up, I just don't know it off hand, so take this as just my opinion if you'd like) that God knows our hearts. Many people claim to be "Christians" but, in their hearts, never really are. Conversely, many people that lived never heard of Christ but may gain eternal life in Heaven. How is this so? Like I said, God knows our hearts and, therefore, knows what we would have decided had we heard of Christ. I believe the same goes with "pre-Columbus" Native Americans, "countless African tribes," the mentally-handicapped, and children that were unborn or died in infancy.Finally, concerning your last paragraph: we do not know, to be completely honest, whether God created a "new world" or not. I strongly believe that he didn't, but I can't seem to think of anywhere in the Bible that says we are God's sole creation (in terms of life and humanity). I do know, though, that God did decide to "right" our world. He sent his son to die for our sins so that we may once again have an opportunity for eternal life. He loved us too much to just destroy us (completely) and start anew. Yes, there is still pain, disease, hunger, etc. here on earth, but we are free of all these consequences of sin in Heaven, if we choose to go there.By the way, this is my last post of the night, so if you reply, I will get back to you tomorrow at some time. Thanks.

Okay, one last post (EDIT: addressed to Asgara):Maybe I wasn't clear by saying we are not held accountable for our sins. I mean that Christ died for all our sins, and so all you have to do to enter Heaven is accept Christ (by accept I mean believe that he is Lord and Savior). No animal sacrifices, no indulgences, etc.Finally, "everyone" is judged by their ACTION in life. This action is accepting Christ or not. The Bible speaks of things such as "crowns" (symbolic?-I do not know) that we receive once we are in Heaven according to how well we shared the gospel (or so I have heard). The "crowns" are of little significance, though, compared to the greatness of Heaven (basically, we will just throw them off). Also, people that do not accept Christ are still judged upon "the things done in his body." These things are essentially what are causing them to go to Hell. Romans 6:23a again says, "for the wages of sin is death."[This message has been edited by phil, 09-02-2003]

Yaro and Brian:
Sorry, I will reply to you a bit later, I just don't have enough time right now.Doctrbill:
First off, a little Scripture to support the whole crown thing (I know it was a little unclear in my first post): Revelation 4:4--"Surrounding the throe were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads." Continuing on with verse 10--"the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne. . .(NIV, other translations say throw off, I believe, I just don't have them with me now)." So there are crowns. Maybe only the "twenty-four elders" get them, but I am not sure.Also, about the "throwing off" these gifts of God and other gifts of God: Philippians 3:8 says, "What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish that I main gain Christ (into verse 9) and be found in him. . ." So these "gifts of God" are nothing compared to the Gift of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, according to Romans 6:23.

Okay,I'm ready now. Yaro: "Why does sin need to be atoned for? Why did God, pre-Christ, require a calf? What logic is there behind killing an animal to appease a diety? That's one question."Well, no that's three questions (just a little humor). Anyway, sin needs to be atoned for because if it weren't, we would all be doomed for Hell. God loves us and decided to reconcile our broken relationship with Him. On to the next question: I actually do not know why God required an animal to be sacrificed. I do know that not just any calf/lamb/etc. could be sacrificed. It had to be a "perfect calf" that was also very useful (in other words, you couldn't sacrifice a calf that was maimed or going to die anyway). So why did Christ need to DIE for our sins? Well, the blood of a perfect calf had to be shed (for whatever reason, I'll try to find the answer to this) to cleanse someone of their sins, so the blood of a perfect man had to be shed to cleanse EVERYONE for their sins (see the correlation?). So God couldn't wipe away our sins by just having a pizza. And if He did, how would that show that He loved us? Why would anyone show thanks to Him? The fact that He loved us enough to send His Son (and if you know anything about the Trinity, then send Himself), the only person actually worthy of Heaven, to be brutally killed, proves to me His love for us.Now, about judging our hearts: God does know what is in our hearts. An atheist does not believe in what Christ did for us, though, so what makes you think that in his heart, he does? Also, say a person has heard about Christ and truly understands what he did for us but still refuses to accept it. This person did not believe in what Christ did for us, so why should he be allowed into Heaven? God does understand our confusion, and has cut us some (a vast understatement) slack. We can screw up an infinite amount of times, but if we just believe in what He has done for us, we will be saved. God never abandoned us, He has always been there for us, and if you, no matter how horrible of a person you are, wanted to know Him intimately, you could ("you" in general).As for your personal case, Yaro: God does understand why you don't believe. However, your reasons for believing should be far greater than you reasons for not believing.Brian: God loves ALL of us. Christ died for ALL of us. But if one does not believe in Him and what he has done, then he will get what he deserves (Hell). God IS like the earthly mother in your analogy. We have turned our backs on him, "broken his heart a million times," and He will keep taking us back. However, if the earthly son just completely denied his mother's existence altogether, how could the mother take him back?Also, you can say God condemns His children to Hell for not believing in Christ, but I would say we condemn ourselves if we do not believe. He has given us the way out, the "free pass to Heaven," all we have to do is accept it. It is our fault if we do not.Finally (to everyone), I feel as if I am coming across as "preachy" (for lack of a better word). Let me assure you that you and I are no different (aside from beliefs). I still do some stupid, selfish things of which I am not proud. I am still a sinner, and I still need God's grace. I TRY to live in Christ's image, but I fail miserably. I believe that at least trying is better than not trying at all, though. Just wanted to clear this up.

Brian, We deserve Hell because we are sinful. We turned our backs on God. His Son died for us, though, so that we may receive what we DO NOT deserve, Heaven. We do not have to stick to certain conditions. If we ask God to take us back, he will. Just like a mother, though, he cannot take us back if we do not want to be taken back. I agree. But God created us to have free will, and saving someone against their will is not free will. I have not forgotten this. At the end of time, it will be impossible to deny the existence of Christ. By then, though, it is too late, and if one did not believe, then . . . I know. I did not mean God doesn't actually condemn us to Hell. I meant that he condemns us to Hell because of our own choices, so, in a sense, we condemn ourselves. I believe that God has made Himself overwhelmingly apparent in this world, if we just look for Him. God does not want to force people to believe in Him; He wants us to worship and praise Him out of our own free will. Also, there is no reason for faith if God just did anything He had to make us believe. I do not believe that in order to go to Heaven, you need to believe in the Adam and Eve story. You do, though, have to believe in Christ and what he did for us. It would make no sense for Christ to die for us if the Adam and Eve story weren't true, though. You are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. I respect everyone on here for trying to pursue the truth, no matter what they believe "the truth" might be. I agree wholeheartedly. If one cannot trust that a certain part of the Bible is accurate, then how can they trust that the rest of it (or even any of it) is true? I do trust that the Bible is accurate, though. That is why I do not understand how some people can say that the Flood or the Creation stories are just myths, but that Jesus was real, and everything written about him is accurate. Don't sweat it. I am sure that I come across strong to others at times.

Man, my computer screws up too much. Sorry about the double post.[This message has been edited by phil, 09-07-2003]

Sorry, I forgot to reply to your post, Dan.Stillborn babies, etc. did not condemn themselves to Hell. I will agree that God does condemn people to Hell. What I was trying to focus on was the fact that we DO have a choice on whether or not we go to Hell. I, unlike some others, am not trying to portray God in any way that is contradictory to the Bible. In other words, my argument was not that "God is all-loving and therefore he does not condemn people to Hell."

I already answered all these questions earlier in this very topic. Also, I do not know what point you are trying to make by quoting all the verses describing faith by works. If you'd like to explain, I'd be happy to reply.

Faith versus works:Basically, as I understand it, all one needs to "be saved" is faith. However, without works, your faith is dead. A marriage is a good analogy here: If I marry some girl, but then I desert her, we are still married technically (barring the worldly practice of divorce). Our marriage, though, for all practical purposes, is dead.

Sorry for the delay once again. Yes, I personally believe that you do. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. On the other hand, the Bible says that faith without deeds is useless (James 2:17-22). It may seem to be a contradiction, but I think it means that although only faith is necessary for salvation, it is completely useless for anything else without works. In other words, when James says that faith is useless, I think he assumes that his audience (the recipients of his letter) already has faith, meaning they already have salvation. No analogy is perfect. The faith:marriage analogy breaks down here. There is no priest who has to officially announce that you have faith in Christ.

I agree. In a worldy sense, it does not seem fair. There's more to it, though. If you'd like to get into this a little more, I'd be happy to, but I think you understand my point as of now. I disagree. A dead marriage is still technically a marriage, just a useless one. In the same way, a dead faith is still faith, just useless (once again, though, I think "useless" assumes that salvation has already been achieved).