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Author Topic:   Universe - Size . . . something doesn't compute !
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 69 (54461)
09-08-2003 1:17 PM


Remember that both an infinite or finite universe is possible with current models. In an infinite universe, you obviously have no edges nor boundaries to worry about. Easy enough, right? But you can also have a finite universe with no boundary. You don't need to imagine time as 4th spatial dimension either. Recall that in GR spacetime can be curved, and is in the presence of mass. However space can also be curved, so that you end up with a volume that is curved in the same way the surface of a globe or balloon is curved. Start out in one direction in search of an edge, and you'll eventually end up back where you started. No edge.
Also keep in mind that a finite universe need not be embedded in any larger space. A finite universe by definition, would have no outside at all. What it comes down to is that while an infinite universe is easy to imagine, there is nothing that requires the real universe to actually be as such.

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by MarkSteven, posted 09-08-2003 8:10 PM Beercules has replied

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 69 (54612)
09-09-2003 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by MarkSteven
09-08-2003 8:10 PM


quote:
Ok then, has there ever been any successful experiment in forcing space to curve?
Spacetime is curved wherever matter or energy is present. That has been verified by experiements.
quote:
As I understand it, you could contain space within a curved "container", but there would still be space existing outside that container. This is the crux of my argument. The universe is not a container - it is the space around, and including the container - surely?
It is not necessarily true that any volume of space must be contained by some larger space outside. The problem is that we've only ever experienced those kinds of spaces. Still, think in terms of logic rather than intuition, and you can see that finite space is possible. For the record, if the unievrse is indeed embedded in a larger space, it must have at least 4 spatial dimensions as opposed to 3. With that, any usefulness of intuition is gone.
quote:
We can try with all our might and limited human knowledge to measure and quantify, but if we go by proven facts, realities which have been scientifically and PHYSICALLY PROVEN, we must conclude, surely that infinity is the only possible "real" explaination.
Err, why?
[This message has been edited by Beercules, 09-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by MarkSteven, posted 09-08-2003 8:10 PM MarkSteven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by MarkSteven, posted 09-09-2003 7:25 PM Beercules has replied

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 69 (54759)
09-10-2003 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by MarkSteven
09-09-2003 7:25 PM


quote:
I will definitely be looking up some information on space-time. As I have said previously, I am an uneducated thinker, so a bit of a read-up on this wouldn't hurt I think ! In fact if anyone could suggest some good reading material on the subject I would greatly appreciate it!
There is probably also a lot of good resources on the web. The folks at Physics Forums | Science Articles, Homework Help, Discussion can help you out with some recommendations. For now, try the Ask an Astronomer FAQ, at http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/qanda.html.
quote:
This is difficult for me to put into words (my meaning) - I don't believe that space is "contained" at all, if fact quite the opposite is what I am trying to put across. That there is no boundary, or "container" - this was in response to the theory that space was curved. Again, I will need to read up on space-time in order to understand your reply fully with regard to the curvature.
A universe with hyperbolic curvature can be finite yet have no boundaries. A 2D surface of a balloon has no edge or center, as you would need to go up into the 3rd dimension to find it. Likewise, our universe would have no edge in 3D, and cannot be contained in any 3D space.
quote:
I have read in other threads that the universe started with a "singularity" or, for want of a better term, a "dot". Again, if indeed this was the case, surely this singularity (or the beginnings of the universe) would have had to reside within something?
A "dot" is a terrible way to put it, and is not correct. The classic singularity is a case where the density of the universe becomes infinite and it's volume shrinks down to a point. IOW, a mathematical point, with no size at all. But before you ask how something so absurd is possible, don't sweat it. I don't think any physicist actually thinks singularities exist in the real world. It is more likely they are just a result of applying general relativity where it is no longer valid. The expectation from a theory of quantum gravity is that singularities of the classic equations will be replaced by something without the infinities or zero volumes of the classic (non quantum) theory. Keep in mind though that even with the classic singularity, only a finite universe shrinks down to a point. In an infinite volume of space, each point reaches infinite density, but the overall size remains infinite even to the moment of the big bang. It is also incorrect to say the big bang implies the universe is finite.
Now, if we imagine a finite universe shrinking down to a minium size, then you might ask what that small universe is contained in. And, what is outside, if not more space? Well, think about it for a moment. If the entire universe is finite, then there is no outside at all. No beyond either. As counter intuitive as that is, the idea is logically sound. In geomtetry, spaces are defines by there own continuum of points. IOW, a line is difined by it's own length, not what length lies beyond it. It's quite simple when you think of it that way.
quote:
Because I see no point in conjecture. We can't see the "end" or the "edge" of universe - or should I call it "space" . . . all we know from physical evidence is that space is unlimited - ie. no space probes or telescopes are able to see an end, so why would we speculate that there is one ?
We can't "see" infinite space either. Nor do we have any physical evidence for an infinite universe that isn't also compatible with a finite cosmos. It is conjecture, because infinite space by it's very nature, could never be proven. However, it may interest you to know that some cosmologists are in fact looking for signatures in the sky that would likely be conclusion evidence that the universe is in fact finite. Nothing through yet though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by MarkSteven, posted 09-09-2003 7:25 PM MarkSteven has not replied

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 69 (54760)
09-10-2003 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by John
09-10-2003 12:33 AM


quote:
One reason people speculate that the universe is finite is that an infinite universe has serious problems. Imagine an infinite universe. Whatever direction you happen to look, you will be looking directly at a star. I don't mean, more or less at a star. That is the situation we have now. I means that the night sky would be brilliant white. There would be no dark spots.
This is resolved with either a universe of finite age, or an expanding univere. Since both are working factors Olber did not know about, the paradox is no more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by John, posted 09-10-2003 12:33 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by John, posted 09-13-2003 8:40 PM Beercules has not replied

  
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