Passover problems in the Gospels

Jazzns,I was not going to respond to later, but I have a few minutes. The reason we are at an impasse is that using scripture, it states the Passover is the 14th. I have given plenty of scripture to show this.In fact, PD, Peg and anyone else I have ever debated has agreed to this. Site after site, dealing with the OT, states this.I keep asking about what day the lamb is slain bc scripture clearly states its the 14th. You keep agreeing with me, then state the 15th is the Passover. But scripture clearly states the day the lamb is slain, is called the Passover. So I was trying to show the correleation. Scripture states lamb slain on 14th. Scripture states the day the lamb is slain is called the Passover.I understand the Lord passed over the doorposts at midnight, so technically, this should be called the Passover. Am I correct this is what you are stating? But for whatever reason, the 15th is not called Passover. Its called the FOUB. The 14th is called the Passover.Show me in scripture where it states the 15th is called the Passover using the OT.Once you can do this, I'll concede the point. Also, please explain why the OT scripture which states the 14th is the Passover is not the Passover, since you're claiming its the 15th.Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Jassnz, to state no one agrees with me is not true. In fact, Greyseal and Peg both agree that it was the 14th. Of course, Peg and I are disagreeing on the time frame of the meal...I erred with PD. For that PD, I apologize. You did say the lamb was slain on the 14th, but the next day is Passover.Here is where the confusion lies.Can you please explain what these three verses mean?"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight (erev) is the LORD’S Passover." Leviticus 23:5"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5Num 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of Yahweh.You seem to be getting quite upset that I do not agree with you that the Passover is the 14th, yet all three verses state otherwise. Perhaps I am reading them wrong.I understand what you are PD are saying, that it was midnight that the lord passed over...therefore, the Passover should be on the 15th.Yet scripture does not call Passover the 15th, but the 14th.Perhaps it was the 14th at midnight that god passed over?

Peg, do you think god passed over Egypt at midnight the 14th or 15th?Here is the problem. 14th is called the Passover. So it makes sense that it was midnight the 14th.Yet the scripture I gave clearly states the evening meal would be eaten at the end of the 14th.Again, two issues you didnt address from my previous post: Point one shows the end of the days start the count, or it would 8 days of unleavened bread.Point 1, between the evenings refers to the end of the day.

Good morning.To answer your question, while ignoring mine... 1) Not sure what you are refering to with your first qustion.2) I have agreed many times, at sundown, new day begins.3) You have 8 days using your scenario. But the FOUB starts the day after Passover.4) Its an 8 day celebration. First day is called Passover, followed by the FOUB.Those are four questions you asked by the way. Now, can you address my questions that I previously asked?They're crucial issues that need to be covered.Also, heres some additional information: http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_nam...

Peg, I'm off to work...But you made a few errors in your last post. I will address them tonight hopefully.Can you please address the issues I have presented? I gave evidence with scripture and outside of scripture when the lambs were eaten. You keep ignoring this.

Oh, goody! What do I win????The points I wish to stress are this.OT scripture states the lambs were killed on the 14th.
OT scripture states between the evening refers to the end of the day.
OT scripture states its an 8 day celebration, Passover followed by SEVEN days of unleavened bread.
OT scripture states its from the 14th to the 21st.
If the meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th as you claim, it would be eight days unleavened bread, not seven.
If the meal was eaten as you say, why the haste? The story makes sense if it was eaten at the end of the day, beginning of the next day.
I gave writings which also state its at the end of the day.
Even Josephus states it was eaten at the end of the day.NT scripture (the point we were initially debating) claims it was the end of the day. Whatever day this is, its the day the lambs are killed. We'll say the day begins at 6:01pm. So after this point, his followers ask where to make preparations to eat the lamb. You say its closer to 6:01, I say its much later. So they find a room, make preparations to eat the Passover. Notice what it states, evening comes. This could only mean its the end of the day. It was eaten on the 15th.

hERICtic writes:
OT scripture states between the evening refers to the end of the day. Between the evenings should have been the term to use. This refers to the end of the day. Lamb slain between the evenings.EXODUS 12:6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim].hERICtic writes:
If the meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th as you claim, it would be eight days unleavened bread, not seven. They were to eat bread for seven days. Thats the celebration. Seven, not eight. We both know the scriputre, seven days. If you count from the ending of the 14th, beginning of the 15th you get seven days. Lamb slain on 14th, meal eate 15th in haste. God passes over. Jews leave the next morning.Where does it state in the OT that they ate the lamb on the 14th?I have stated late 14th early 15th bc there are a few ideas as to when the day ended.

Sorry I didnt get back to you right away. Busy reading on this topic, from Christian and Jewish perspectives. I asked earlier, why the the 14th is called Passover if it was midnight the 15th, god passed over. It didnt seem to make much sense. Yet nearly every site I have read, states it was the 15th. Using this information, it makes perfect sense that the last meal was eaten towards the ending of the 14th, beginning 15th. Scripture backs this up IF it was midnight the 15th. But yet, the 14th is called Passover. So I can understand how some view midnight the 14th as when the angel of death passed over. With this belief, its understandable that the last meal was early in the day, as you believe. Yet every piece of scripture I read, it seems to be quite clear that between the evenings or evening, means the end of the day. Do you agree or disagree that it refers to the end of the day? Notice the evening sacrifice occurs past the afternoon.It seems that this information clearly lays out the evidence to support when the lambs were slain. On the 14th, past noon.Yet, still....I have yet to find a site which show why the 14th is called the Passover, when the available information points to midnight the 15th.Perhaps you have an explanation? I can see your viewpoint though, but it seems to disagree with the terminology of what an "evening" is. Passvoer is the 14th, so it seems to point to midnight the 14th as the passing over.As for my point regarding the 14th-21st. I agree with you, always have, that its an eight day celebration. Yet scripture states unleavened bread was eaten with the lamb. If that is the case, if it was eaten in the early 14th, that would make 8 days of unleavened bread, not seven. Thats the point I was trying to make. If the last meal was eaten early 15th, its seven days unleavened bread, as per the instructions.In the synpotics though, its clear Jesus ate his last meal after the lambs were slain.Do you agree or disagree with this point?Edited by hERICtic, : To clarify a few points.

hERICtic writes:
With this belief, its understandable that the last meal was early in the day, as you believe. Yet every piece of scripture I read, it seems to be quite clear that between the evenings or evening, means the end of the day. We can use scripture. Hence why I always state the end of 14th, beginning of 15th. The meal can be eaten and carry unto the next day. Actually, it does not say that.6 but at the place which HaShem thy G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.Evening is the going down of the sun. The going down of the sun is not the beginning of the next day. When the sun IS down, ti begins. The sun starts to go down after noon. So this again, shows the end of the day. Remember, I've given scripture that clearly states the "eveving" is towards the end of the day.hERICtic writes:
EXODUS 29:38 "And this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs daily, sons of a year; 39 the one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the second lamb you shall offer between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim]. C'mon Peg. Its giving you the layout of the day. 2 lambs DAILY. It states the morning and the evening. If, as you claim, by "evening" refers to the next day, it would be one lamb.Here is more scripture:"The battle raged that day, and the king of Israel propped himself up in his chariot in front of the Arameans until the evening; and at sunset he died." 2 Chronicles 18:34"And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remaineth unto this day." Joshua 8:29Both state evening is the end of the day.Even better: Leviticus 23:27 On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.So the tenth is the day of atonement.Verse 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbathEvening again is the end of the day.hERICtic writes:
I KINGS 18:29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.Notice the evening sacrifice occurs past the afternoon.It seems that this information clearly lays out the evidence to support when the lambs were slain. On the 14th, past noon. Yes, the new day begins at sundown. But if you keep reading (would have helped if I included the rest of the scripture) it clearly states there was still light at evening. Therefore, the sun has not set, its still the same day.I KINGS 18:41 Then Elijah said to Ahab, "Go up, eat and drink; for there is the sound of abundance of rain." 42 So Ahab went up to eat and drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; then he bowed down on the ground, and put his face between his knees, 43 and said to his servant, "Go up now, look toward the sea." So he went up and looked, and said, "There is nothing." And seven times he said, "Go again." 44 Then it came to pass the seventh time, that he said, "There is a cloud, as small as a man's hand, rising out of the sea!" So he said, "Go up, say to Ahab, 'Prepare your chariot, and go down before the rain stops you.'" 45 Now it happened in the meantime that the sky became black with clouds and wind, and there was a heavy rain. So Ahab rode away and went to Jezreel. 46 Then the hand of the LORD came upon Elijah; and he girded up his loins and ran ahead of Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.The sky became black with clouds and wind. Not from lack of sun. This entire story points to evening being the end of the day.hERICtic writes:
Yet, still....I have yet to find a site which show why the 14th is called the Passover, when the available information points to midnight the 15th. I have always agreed that the 14th is Biblical. Im just not understanding why its called that. It just seems to make more sense based upon the evidence in the Bible that the 15th should be called the Passover. Which is not supported by scripture. Nowhere in the OT does it state thishERICtic writes:
As for my point regarding the 14th-21st. I agree with you, always have, that its an eight day celebration. Yet scripture states unleavened bread was eaten with the lamb. If that is the case, if it was eaten in the early 14th, that would make 8 days of unleavened bread, not seven. Basically, you're just saying that they did eat unleavened bread on all eight days, but the first day is called Passover and does not count.Except you have a problem:Exodus:6 and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.Ok, I'll ignore "dusk" here which states the end of the day...7 And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side-posts and on the lintel, upon the houses wherein they shall eat it.8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.Passover meal eaten with unleavened bread. You say this does not count as one of the seven days of unleavened bread. I disagree. Lets keep reading...9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; but that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.Remember, the Jews left in the morning (on the 15th)11 And thus shall ye eat it: with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste--it is HaShem'S passover.So we know this meal is considered the Passover meal.12 For I will go through the land of Egypt in that night, and will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am HaShem."that night" refers back to the same day as the meal is eaten.13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and there shall no plague be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to HaShem; throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.Ok, the day of the angel of death is considered a memorial. Remember, you state its the 14th at midnight, I say 15th.15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; howbeit the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses; for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.Verse 15 now states the first day of unleavened bread is the same day the angel of death passed over. It also states the Passover meal is part of this day. Refer back to verse 14, which states the day is a memorial, then verse 15 states its part of the seven days.16 And in the first day there shall be to you a holy convocation, and in the seventh day a holy convocation; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you.17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore shall ye observe this day throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.So we know the first day of unleavened bread is celebrated on the day the Jews left Egypt, which was the 15th. We know the first day of unleavened bread is from the 14th to the 21st. We also know the Passover meal was eaten on the same day of the FOUB.hERICtic writes:In the synpotics though, its clear Jesus ate his last meal after the lambs were slain.Do you agree or disagree with this point? Wait a second...Your scenario: Lambs slain on early 14th. Lambs eaten that night, before morning. When evening arrives, its the next day, the 15th.Luke states: Lambs slain. Preparations made, evening arrives when they sit down for the meal. That could only mean the end of the day, the beginning of the 15th they are eating their meal.

I typed out a long response, didnt finish.....and came back an hour later AFTER my four year old decided to play on the computer. All gone.So I have a few minutes, I'll make this a tad shorter.hERICtic writes:
Hence why I always state the end of 14th, beginning of 15th. The meal can be eaten and carry unto the next day. I didnt forget. In fact, it clearly points to the 15th, since scripture states they left on the morning OF the 15th.hERICtic writes:
Evening is the going down of the sun. The going down of the sun is not the beginning of the next day. When the sun IS down, ti begins. First, what does it matter how some Jews celebrated the Passover. What is actually in scripture is important. Those are gods laws. Do you think Jesus followed his fathers laws or what some Jews did? Second, nothing in your information suggests "evening" was in the first part of the day. The difference is between 3-6 and 6-7:20.hERICtic writes:
C'mon Peg. Its giving you the layout of the day. 2 lambs DAILY. It states the morning and the evening. If, as you claim, by "evening" refers to the next day, it would be one lamb. I cant believe you just said that. You argue all the time about focusing on scripture, then when scripture disagrees with you, you change what scripture states.It states crystal clear, two lambs DAILY. It does not say evening, then in the morning at all. It states one in the morning, one in the evening. This is clearly two on one day.You have yet to give a single scripture that states an "evening" event refers to the beginning of the day. I on the other hand, have given you quite a bit of OT scripture that clearly shows its the end of the day.hERICtic writes:
Yes, the new day begins at sundown. But if you keep reading (would have helped if I included the rest of the scripture) it clearly states there was still light at evening. Therefore, the sun has not set, its still the same day. You misunderstood. I didnt say the new day began when the start of the sun goes down. I was just trying to show at noon, the sun is highest then after this point is slowly descends. Peg, every reference I have given, evening, s the time before the sunset. But there are some instances where it appears "evening" is used in place of sunset. In either case, it refers to darkness. Heck, even Genesis states this. The point is, in Kings, its still daylight when the clouds hit. Its still the same day.Again, you have not given one scripture to counter anything I have stated. Not one. You have taken ambigious scripture with your opinion that it means the beginning of the day, but not one that actually provides evidence for this.hERICtic writes:
Your scenario: Lambs slain on early 14th. Lambs eaten that night, before morning. When evening arrives, its the next day, the 15th.Luke states: Lambs slain. Preparations made, evening arrives when they sit down for the meal. That could only mean the end of the day, the beginning of the 15th they are eating their meal. Hold on a second. You made it clear the lambs were slain on the 14th. Naturally, there must be preparations the day before, but there are also preparations to eat once the lamb is slain. I am not refering to those events needed prior to the 14th. I am refering to that fact that Luke states the lambs were slain on X day and that evening, later that day or the following night Jesus eats his last meal. You keep repeating yourself bc you keep ignoring not only what you state but what I state.You already stated the lambs were slain on the 14th, NOT the 13th. You have said this numerous times.Not only have you admitted it was the 14th, you stated it was NOT the 13th. Message 70: If the lambs were slain on the 14th, this is either on the evening or past that point. Luke then states ANOTHER evening came..which can only mean its later on the 14th or the 15th. This is the part you keep missing or ignoring.Mark 14 writes:
12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"Again, you have stated the lambs were not slain on the 13th, but the 14th. This is the part you keep missing. Just to keep this simple, we'll say 6:01 pm is the start of the 14th. This would be evening, either the end of the 13th or the beginning of the 14th. Whatever the case, its evening. So at this point, they were to make preparations to eat the Passover.16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."Notice what it states! Evening came! This is AFTER the start of the day. This can only be the end of the day or the beginning of the 15th!Do you understand this now? You can argue all you want that an eveving in the OT means the start of the day, its a seperate issue from the gospel accounts.In the synoptics, Jesus could NOT have eaten his meal early 14th, for the simple fact it states the day the lambs are slain are upon them, which automatically means the 14th (or the 15th if you want to argue the days are combined) so evening (the start of the day is already there). It further goes on to state preparations are made to eat the lamb, THEN evening comes. This can ONLY mean its the end of the day, or the start of the new one.