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Author Topic:   Are mutations truly random or are they guided?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3319 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 10 of 134 (548608)
02-28-2010 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by herebedragons
02-27-2010 11:46 PM


herebedragons writes:
This is not an argument about irreducible complexity and I am not saying God-did-it. What I am suggesting is that random mutations may not be the all powerful driving force of evolution that they have been thought to be. Instead, it makes more sense that mutations, (and therefore adaptation) are directed by the cell and by cellular processes.
So, I would like to discuss the experimental and observed evidence for and against the idea that mutations are random and yet can still provide the needed resources for evolution to occur.
Of course, your entire post is a straw man. You briefly mentioned natural selection and then completely ignored it in the rest of your post. But then you also blow up the role of random mutation to imply that random mutation is the main driving force of evolution.
Random mutation is only part of evolution. And I would argue that in the great scheme of things it is a very small part of it. The main beef of it all are all the mechanisms that take full advantage of the variations that invariably result from mutation. But you failed to take that into consideration at all.
So, it leads me to wonder why you started this thread. Since you are aware of natural selection, I doubt that you are either ignorant or genuinely seeking out knowledge. What's the alternative? Only the gods and you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by herebedragons, posted 02-27-2010 11:46 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2010 10:20 PM Taz has replied
 Message 16 by herebedragons, posted 02-28-2010 10:54 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3319 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 134 (548667)
02-28-2010 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Bolder-dash
02-28-2010 10:20 PM


Bolder-dash writes:
Once again you and Perry and others are trying to run away from the random aspect of the entire ToE, as if natural selection all by itself can do anything. The fact that you can neither adequately demonstrate the accuracy of either the random mutations aspect of it, nor the natural selection aspect of it, does not prevent you from claiming that the random mutations part is a "very small part of it."
Random mutation and natural selection don't just apply to biological life. It's also a very useful method to understand physical problems in physics. Hint: monte carlo method.
Random mutation is a small but significant part of evolution. Parameters (selective pressures) are then applied to weed out the undesired results and keep the desired results. Through time, small but significant results are accumulated to give rise to new characteristics. And so on and so forth. But my point in this thread is random mutation isn't the start all end all thing that drives evolution. It's a significant piece, but just a piece nonetheless.
You side claims it takes too long to "see" evolution and that's why it is hard to demonstrate it scientifically
Incorrect. Evolution is very easy to demonstrate. But it also depends on who's receiving the information. And right now as it stands, you seem to have no clue how the mechanisms work.
you claim your theory can make predictions but don't know what they are
What are you talking about? Accurate predictions have been cited so many times on this forum, I've lost count.
you claim the mechanisms for all of the variation are still not clearly know yet you are sure they are random
Huh? When did I or anyone say this?
you say you don't know how it all started but are working on that
What, and you claim to know it all?
and now you want to say that well, look let's not get all hung up on the small matter of how the changes happen in a species, let's just concentrate on the fact that once the changes happen, animals survive better (or maybe not, we are still working on that too, perhaps its all just lucky horizontal drift!).
You seem to have a gross misunderstanding of evolution based on these words.
For a scientific theory that wants to preclude consideration of all other ideas, its not much of a theory.
Incorrect. If you have a better view, please by all means publish your experiments and results in peer review.
Do you or do you not agree that mutation invariably happens? If you do not, please explain why and give us examples. If you do agree, then I don't understand what the argument is here.
And from the incredulity that your side thinks that just because your theory is hard to prove and impossible to show...
Again, the theory is quite simple to understand and demonstrate. The problem lies in the audience. Your words demonstrate that you don't even understand the basics of biological evolution. Just because you can throw in words from a high school biology text doesn't mean you understand them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-28-2010 10:20 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-01-2010 8:06 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3319 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 134 (548673)
02-28-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by herebedragons
02-28-2010 10:54 PM


herebedragons writes:
The way I understand it, mutations are the engine and natural selection is the steering wheel. Without mutations, where would NS go? Although NS and RM are interrelated, this thread is about mutations. I don't have to discuss both topics in one thread.
No, but you could have worded your OP a lot better. Try to understand it from my view. We get a hundred or so ignorant creationists a month declaring that evolution = 100% random. Hell, even our long time (years) resident creationists still insist that evolution = 100% random.
After reading your other posts, I understand now that you are not like that. My apology for jumping the gun.
apparently you have been able to discern my motives and can see through my veiled attempt to convert you to my religion.
I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm actually psychic. The proof of this is the fact that I'm never wrong...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by herebedragons, posted 02-28-2010 10:54 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
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