Understanding through Discussion

Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8898 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-26-2019 6:24 AM
22 online now:
PaulK, Porkncheese, Tangle, vimesey (4 members, 18 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,658 Year: 3,695/19,786 Month: 690/1,087 Week: 59/221 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Author Topic:   Foul Tasting Bugs
Member (Idle past 3098 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009

Message 46 of 47 (550893)
03-19-2010 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
03-18-2010 1:59 PM

Re: This shows the failure of ID and creationism
What third alternative are you thinking of? Both? Creation by evolution is still evolution..

Well, there are a number of alternatives

- generation of the tree of life by some naturalistic mechanism other than natural selection, so a different 'kind' of evolution
- creation by some beings of natural origin
- creation by some supernatural being other than the Christian God.

None of these validates the creationist worldview. If ToE as currently understood is falsified, they are potential solutions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2010 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Posts: 3310
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1

Message 47 of 47 (550922)
03-19-2010 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by InGodITrust
03-17-2010 2:58 PM

Re: evolution is in populations not in individuals
Well, you can probably see that I am hoping to find chinks in the armour of the ToE, and I haven't found one here. I don't really expect that I will ever find a chink myself, but I'm sure they exist, and will be discovered by scientists some day.

It would appear that you consider evolution to be a enemy which you want to fight. So why are you wasting your time and effort shooting blindly in the vain hope that you might possibly hit something ("chinks in the armour"), instead of carrying on the fight in an effective manner?


Sun Tzu, Scroll III (Offensive Strategy):

  1. Therefore I say: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles
    you will never be in peril.
  2. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of
    winning or losing are equal.
  3. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every
    battle to be in peril."

(Sun Tzu The Art of War, translation by Samuel B. Griffith, Oxford University Press, 1963)

In order to fight evolution, you must study evolution. Only then can you ever hope to know the enemy.

If you are a young-earth creationist, then you will also need to study the other sciences, including geology, astronomy, and physics. A side benefit to those studies is that they will enable you to examine and test creationist claims, thus leading you to also knowing yourself.

Quoting from memory from a radio newscast circa 1990, give or take half a decade, the then-Governor of Mississippi explaining why he was campaigning so hard for education reform in his state:

We know that ignorance doesn't work, because we've already tried it!

Since before I started studying "creation science" 30 years ago, creationists have steadfastly been trying ignorance. That practice of theirs was already long overdue for a change 40 years ago. Better late than never.

Percy;Msg#32 writes:

Scientists seek chinks in our understanding of the natural world and then work to resolve them.

I've displayed my tag lines in support of what Percy was telling. Scientists see a mystery and they seek to solve it, thus increasing our knowledge and understanding. Creationists see a mystery and proclaim it to be proof of God, so they instead seek to make it remain a mystery, thus ingraining ignorance more deeply.

As already pointed out, we've already tried ignorance, so we know that it doesn't work.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)

Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)

Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.
Robert Colbert on NPR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by InGodITrust, posted 03-17-2010 2:58 PM InGodITrust has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:

Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019