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Author Topic:   Are there evolutionary reasons for reproduction?
Taq
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Message 11 of 136 (554466)
04-08-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MrQ
04-08-2010 12:31 PM


As reproduction is a requirement for evolution then it should have been around before it otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
Evolution started with the first imperfectly reproducing organisms.
You could easily reproduce less but have a longer life to keep species going.
Such a species would have less variation within the population. This would make the species less adaptive to new challenges at the genetic level. Slower reproducing species like us have overcome this by using our intelligence, not our genetics, to overcome new challenges. Bacteria adopt the exact opposite strategy by overwhelming a problem with billions of bacteria at a time with generation times measured in minutes.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 22 of 136 (554506)
04-08-2010 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by MrQ
04-08-2010 1:33 PM


It means the evolutionary reason for having reproduction is only to produce variations. But at molecular level we don't have any variations so there is no reason to reproduce.
Natural selection does not occur at the molecular level. It happens at the organismal and population level. It is the organism as a whole that reproduces, not a molecule within the organism.
Also, how many organisms alive today are the descendants of ancestors who did not reproduce?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 41 of 136 (554812)
04-10-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by MrQ
04-10-2010 6:09 AM


You need to consider that 'survival' depends on two forces. One is reproduction and the other death.
As it turns out, those who who survive to reproduce tend to have the fittest genes. Genetics is a force as well.

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 Message 39 by MrQ, posted 04-10-2010 6:09 AM MrQ has replied

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 Message 43 by MrQ, posted 04-10-2010 11:05 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 42 of 136 (554813)
04-10-2010 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by MrQ
04-10-2010 6:35 AM


I can easily break your theory by saying what if variation didn't change the reproduction at all but dropped the death rate? for example by better resistance against an illness. This will only lengthen the life span of that specie and cause them to be a dominant specie as you pointed out.
Without reproduction the species would still die out in a single generation, even if that generation lived twice as long as the last. Also, without differential reproduction the number of individuals with the advantageous gene would stay the same generation to generation.
Pay attention that in this whole entire process the reproduction stays the same with no changes at all. So reproduction can't be the target.
How can you talk about genetics changing within a population over time without involving reproduction? Care to explain?
I totally understand. You see there are several abstraction layers here which seems to be confused. At lower level you are absolutely right. But at higher level if you consider probabilities and long time span then you will find that the process is not blind at all and even doesn't look blind! We see a proper target and vivid forces work together to get to that target. This target or targets might be there by chance but that doesn't make them non-existant.
Care to give an example within biology? For example, if the wing for a vertebrate were a target then why are the flying fish wing, the bat wing, and the bird wing so different?
I give you an example to understand it deeply. In quantum world there is no way that you can say for example an electron is located where at a specific time around in hydrogen atom. It is all probabilistic and that individual electron blindly and randomly revolves around the core and stay in proximity by the forces evolved. But this whole concept doesn't mean that we can't draw a probability graph of the area that single electron stays most of its time. You can't say because the process is random and blind, we can't find any area. In fact calculating this orbitals is a key concept in quantum theory and whole chemistry is based on it. Even you can predict what an atom will do in a chemical reaction based on these orbitals without knowing what happens at lower abstraction layer. That's the beauty of probability theory.
You have a lot of different concepts all muddled together. Are you saying that an electron in an oxygen atom has the goal of water in mind before it comes in contact with a hydrogen atom?
Perhaps a better analogy would be the game of craps. Are the probabilities of specific role increased when someone makes a bet on it? For example, if I put my bet on the Pass line on the come out roll do the odds increase for rolling a 7 or 11? They don't, do they. The dice are not trying to meet a goal. Evolution is the same way. The mutations that occur are not aimed at a specific target. They are random in the same way that the roll of the dice is random with respect to the bets on the table. The mutations that get passed on to the next generation are the mutations that work, no matter how they work.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 45 of 136 (554827)
04-10-2010 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by MrQ
04-10-2010 11:05 AM


But when we say we have competition in species then we have to see what is ultimately is changing?
That would be the genetics of the population as a whole.
If we call Y survival, is it that the case that all these forces are working to make Max(Y)? It doesn't make sense to put reproduction here as it is already there as primary parameter.
Why doesn't it make sense to include the primary parameter in an equation? It would seem to be required. Survival is defined in relation to reproduction. Survival doesn't mean living the longest. It means having the most grandchildren. It means survival of your genes, and this is dependent on reproduction and the reproductive fitness of your children. If death occurs after having tons of children death doesn't matter as long as your death does not affect the passage of your genes from your children to your grandchildren. For example, salmon die right after they spawn. Their death does not impact the next generation. Death is meaningless in your equation without first relating it to reproduction.
Another evolutionary example is to assume that we have two slightly different species of bacteria in one petri dish. They both eat the same food and in fact they are very similar. Also assume the only thing that is different between them is the color and the petri dish is under sunlight. The light color specie gets affected by sunlight and have slightly higher death rate. But their reproduction rate is unaffected.
Dying before you can reproduce does affect the reproduction rate. On average, the sunlight resistant bacteria will have more offspring than the sunlight sensitive bacteria due to having more offspring.
The whole thing I am saying is that all these forces are working to maximize dominance of an specie and that is the main target.
No, that is the unavoidable outcome. There is no target, per se. You might as well claim that rivers in the Western US have the Pacific Ocean as a target. This would be wrong. The unavoidable consequence of gravity is that water will drain to the lowest elevation.

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 Message 43 by MrQ, posted 04-10-2010 11:05 AM MrQ has replied

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 Message 47 by MrQ, posted 04-10-2010 1:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 48 of 136 (554848)
04-10-2010 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by MrQ
04-10-2010 1:21 PM


True! but to achieve what?! What is the target?
There is no target.
I understand where are you coming from. But I am not after fuzzy description of things. To me there is huge difference between 'having the most grandchildren' and 'survival of genes'.
So what is that difference?
Still you will see that dominant bacteria will be the dark one. Why? because light one die with a higher rate. Simple as that.
The dark bacteria make up the majority of the population because they carry the fitter genes. The gene which is responsible for the dark phenotype results in more descedants with the dark phenotype. What it comes down to is the inheritance of fitter genes through reproduction.
As I said in previous post, these are all metaphorical but in fact it is true. It doesn't matter weather a target is avoidable or unavoidable, the fact is that is the target no matter what is the reasons behind it.
"Target" implies many outcomes, only one of which is aimed for. There is only one possible outcome in evolution, an increase in fitness over time. To use another analogy, the inevitable outcome of pulling the trigger on a gun is a bullet hitting something. Just because a round hits something does not imply that this something was the target. When you go target shooting do you randomly wave a gun around and squeeze off shots hitting random things around you?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 92 of 136 (560385)
05-14-2010 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jazzns
05-14-2010 4:34 PM


Re: Are there financial reasons for working?
What other back-assward comparisons can you think of?
Are there mucosal reasons for picking your nose?
Are there rectal reasons for having your head up your ass?
Are there ninja stealth reasons for being so dim?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 125 of 136 (580324)
09-08-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by barbara
09-08-2010 4:04 PM


Re: Look Ma, no enzymes!
This is the biggest question I wish someone could answer. Oxygen being so toxic for early life should have stop the ones producing it.
Unless, of course, if the oxygen producers were tolerant of free oxygen. The advent of photosynthesis occurred well after the beginning of life. On top of that, there are still obligate anaerobes that find niches to fill in our oxygen rich world. In fact, you can find a few of them in your gut right now.

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