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Author Topic:   It's a World Cup year!
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1601
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 46 of 291 (556848)
04-21-2010 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Blue Jay
04-21-2010 10:13 AM


Re: Wage caps
I like the system too: it makes the game more interesting, with new teams entering the league all the time. It also makes the teams have to perform to at least some level in order to stay, so you improve the chances that the league or division will have the best teams possible. For that reason alone, I wish USA sports would try the system out (but, since the leagues here are actually run by the franchise owners, this is obviously less likely to happen).

I think I like the way Elitserien (Swedish Hockey) does it better though: there's a qualifying tournament instead of automatic promotion/relegation. It makes sure you don't get a crap team in by a fluke.

Which I think shows you're looking at it in a very different way to me. You seem to be viewing the system over how it affects the important competition at the top (the Premier League), but the Premiership is only a part of it. The other leagues matter too.

The Swedish Elitserien that you're descrbing is, again, just about one competition. There doesn't seem much point in taking part in the playoffs if you don't seriously think you can qualify. The League Pyramid is different. Most teams are far, far away from the top divisions, but they have their own little local titles to play for, like the East Anglian Combined Counties Second Division or some such nonsense, whilst still knowing that they're part of the same system as professional footballers. This means the scope is essentially unlimited; whereas a yearly playoff couldn't accommodate every team in a country like England (even the FA Cup, which nowadays has 8 playoff stages before the top clubs join in, doesn't have room for all the teams in the league pyramid).

By the way, can you (or anyone) explain to me a little how the international competitions work? I know UEFA Champions League is the highest European competition, and UEFA Europa League is next, but how do they determine which teams go to which UEFA competition?

Each country in Europe has a coefficient rating, which is decided based mostly on the performances of their clubs in European competitions, but also by the performance of their national team. Based on this coefficient, they get a different number of places in each competition. A country like England, which is at the top, gets 2 teams automatically into the first round of the Champions League, another two straight into the third qualifying round for the Champions League, and two teams directly into the Europa League. The bottom countries, like tiny little Malta, will just get one team each into the first qualifying rounds of the Champions League and Europa League.

These places are usually decided by finishing positions in the league, so the top four teams in the English Premiership this season will go to the Champions League next season and the next two to the Europa League.

There are also a couple of places dished out each year as rewards for fair play, and last season's winner qualifies automatically nowadays, but mostly it's decided by domestic league position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Blue Jay, posted 04-21-2010 10:13 AM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Blue Jay, posted 04-21-2010 1:22 PM caffeine has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 776 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 47 of 291 (556872)
04-21-2010 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by caffeine
04-21-2010 10:43 AM


Pyramids.
Hi, Caffeine.

caffeine writes:

The Swedish Elitserien that you're descrbing is, again, just about one competition. There doesn't seem much point in taking part in the playoffs if you don't seriously think you can qualify. The League Pyramid is different.

Well, that's not entirely true. It's the same promotion/relegation concept as English football, with a pyramid of leagues and divisions. It's just that promotion/relegation is determined by tournament. There are still championships at the lower levels (granted, not as much as in association football, and not as well publicized or celebrated, but it's still there).

It was just the idea of using a tournament, rather than an automated system, to promote or relegate teams, that I liked. It works as much to keep the lower division from being dominated by teams that probably should be in the higher division as it does to keep the crap teams out of the higher division.

I do like the idea behind the FA Cup, where the low divisions get to start the tournament, and higher and higher divisions join in as the tournament progresses.

-----

caffeine writes:

These places are usually decided by finishing positions in the league, so the top four teams in the English Premiership this season will go to the Champions League next season and the next two to the Europa League.

Are the rules for who goes determined by UEFA, or by the individual leagues?

Edited by Bluejay, : I wrote "think" when I meant "like."


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by caffeine, posted 04-21-2010 10:43 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1601
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 48 of 291 (557007)
04-22-2010 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Blue Jay
04-21-2010 1:22 PM


Re: Pyramids.
Are the rules for who goes determined by UEFA, or by the individual leagues?

UEFA, I think, but I don't know if it always has been. The system's changed quite a bit over the years, and teams used to be able to qualify for the UEFA Cup (the forerunner to the Europa League) by winning domestic cup competitions as well as by final league position.

I think football associations employ lots of people with little to do but analyse how competition structures work, as something seems to change every season. This season it was the qualifying rounds for the Champions League, which were changed to give teams which won their leagues a bit of an advantage over runners-up from nations with multiple qualifying teams.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Blue Jay, posted 04-21-2010 1:22 PM Blue Jay has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 49 of 291 (560521)
05-15-2010 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by caffeine
04-14-2010 7:23 AM


Odds
Current world cup odds World Cup Odds

Spain, Brazil, England and Argentina are the favorites. US 75/1.

Spain 4/1
Chile 66/1
Greece 150/1
Brazil 5/1
Serbia 66/1
Switzerland 200/1
England 6/1
USA 75/1
Slovakia 225/1
Argentina 7/1
Mexico 80/1
Japan 250/1
Holland 12/1
Ghana 80/1
South Korea 250/1
Italy 13/1
Cameroon 100/1
Slovenia 300/1
Germany 13/1
Uruguay 100/1
Algeria 600/1
France 14/1
Nigeria 100/1
Honduras 1000/1
Portugal 25/1
South Africa 125/1
North Korea 2000/1
Ivory Coast 30/1
Australia 125/1
New Zealand 2000/1
Paraguay 66/1
Denmark 125/1


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 62 by Blue Jay, posted 06-10-2010 1:17 PM Straggler has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 50 of 291 (560527)
05-15-2010 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Straggler
05-15-2010 6:54 PM


Re: Odds
My final four pick: Spain, Argentina, Ivory Coast and Italy.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 6:54 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 51 of 291 (560530)
05-15-2010 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by onifre
05-15-2010 7:23 PM


Re: Odds
Never discount the friggin germans.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by onifre, posted 05-15-2010 7:23 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by onifre, posted 05-15-2010 7:48 PM Straggler has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 52 of 291 (560532)
05-15-2010 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Straggler
05-15-2010 7:43 PM


Re: Odds
Yeah I pretty much flipped a coin between Italy and Germany.

You guys too. But I couldn't bring myself to give it to you.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 7:43 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 7:55 PM onifre has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 53 of 291 (560533)
05-15-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by onifre
05-15-2010 7:48 PM


Re: Odds
You guys too. But I couldn't bring myself to give it to you.

Every competition the entire nation, press and even I suspect team, convince themselves that this time we are amongst the favourites.

Then we predictably go out on penalties in the quarter finals. Probably to Germany. Bastards.

I'm a bit drunk. BTW.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by onifre, posted 05-15-2010 7:48 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by onifre, posted 05-15-2010 7:59 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 58 by caffeine, posted 06-10-2010 10:54 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 06-10-2010 11:45 AM Straggler has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 54 of 291 (560534)
05-15-2010 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Straggler
05-15-2010 7:55 PM


Re: Odds
Then we predictably go out on penalties in the quarter finals. Probably to Germany. Bastards.

Spoken like a true fan.

I'm a bit drunk. BTW.

Cheers! It's 2 hours before my show so I'm baked.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 7:55 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 8:02 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 55 of 291 (560535)
05-15-2010 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by onifre
05-15-2010 7:59 PM


Burp!
I'm a bit drunk. BTW.

Cheers! It's 2 hours before my show so I'm baked.

Good for you. I nearly entered the whole dick waving thang with you, Rrhain and Mod in the humour thread. But then I decided I am not that drunk.

G'night....... ZZZZZzzzzz ZZZZZZZZzzzzzz


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Arphy
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 56 of 291 (564362)
06-10-2010 6:21 AM


Go NZ!! Go Deutschland!!
Yay, we (NZ) finally made it to the World Cup again!
OK, to be honest, if NZ win a game i'll be ecstatic.
But still, should be pretty exciting.
When NZ scored that goal against Bahrain to qualify for the world cup it was definitely party time.
Here's hoping they beat Slovakia!

To be fair, I'll probably spend more time cheering on my country of birth (Germany). Despite losing Ballack, I still reckon it might be time to lift that trophy again
Somehow, i don't think the chances of the two teams meeting is very great but if (by some miracle) it somehow works out that they do, I wonder who i would cheer for?

Anyhoo, just thought I'd throw my thoughts in there, cos I'm pretty amped for this show to get started, bring it on!


Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3020 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 57 of 291 (564379)
06-10-2010 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Arphy
06-10-2010 6:21 AM


Re: Go NZ!! Go Deutschland!!
To be fair, I'll probably spend more time cheering on my country of birth (Germany). Despite losing Ballack, I still reckon it might be time to lift that trophy again

I couldn't let that slip by!

Don't be greedy! Since England last won it you've won it twice and been runners up 3 times!

And you've blatantly cheated by coaching and preparing your players on how to play international football!

Don't you understand? You must flog your players to death during the domestic season, and then play them in the World Cup in completely different systems and positions to what they are used to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Arphy, posted 06-10-2010 6:21 AM Arphy has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1601
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 58 of 291 (564411)
06-10-2010 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Straggler
05-15-2010 7:55 PM


Re: Odds
quote:
Then we predictably go out on penalties in the quarter finals. Probably to Germany. Bastards.

We're more likely to get knocked out by Argentina in the quarter-finals, in some jammy and undeserved victory despite their total absence of any tactical leadership. Oh well.

My original semi final predictions were England-Holland and Spain-France, but the second time I tried working it out I got England-France and Spain-Brazil. I'm not sure if my opinions changed or I just keep making mistakes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 7:55 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 11:28 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 59 of 291 (564415)
06-10-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by caffeine
06-10-2010 10:54 AM


Re: Odds
We're more likely to get knocked out by Argentina in the quarter-finals, in some jammy and undeserved victory despite their total absence of any tactical leadership. Oh well.

My better half is Argentinian. So that had better not happen. Apart from anything else my 4 year old son is about to expereince his first world cup and is in danger of becoming a lifelong Argentina suporter if that happens

I am happy that he is a mongrel child in almost every way. But he has to grow up supporting England at sport. This is not up for debate.

My original semi final predictions were England-Holland and Spain-France, but the second time I tried working it out I got England-France and Spain-Brazil. I'm not sure if my opinions changed or I just keep making mistakes.

Have a few beers and then try again. that is my advice


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 Message 58 by caffeine, posted 06-10-2010 10:54 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 60 of 291 (564418)
06-10-2010 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Straggler
05-15-2010 7:55 PM


Re: Odds
Every competition the entire nation, press and even I suspect team, convince themselves that this time we are amongst the favourites.

US fans are more realistic. A successful World Cup for the US would be to beat England, make it out of pool play, and win their first match in the elimination rounds. Anything after that is gravy.

US soccer (sorry, we will always call it soccer) is on the rise. Every year there are more and more US players in the top European leagues. Its only matter of time before the US becomes one of the powerhouses, but that time is not now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2010 7:55 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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