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Author Topic:   Evolution of poisonous vs. non-poisonous snakes
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 13 (571562)
08-01-2010 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Burnerjack
07-31-2010 8:54 PM


Hi Burnerjack, and welcome to the fray.
Open question : " I can understand Natural Selection as well as mutation through cosmic ray DNA damage/modification. My problem is both of the above mechanisms seem predominately subtractive ( but certainly not always).
What you are talking about are (generally) point mutations in somatic (body) cells. These mutations are not passed from parent to offspring, and thus do not affect evolution of species, just the bodies of individuals.
In biology, evolution is the change in frequency and character of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation.
Thus we would be talking about mutations in (male/female) germ cells - the cells that are used in reproduction to make new individuals.
Mutations in these cells can arise from "cosmic ray DNA damage/modification" however a more common source is due to the fact that the DNA replication process is imperfect, so the new DNA strands for the new offspring are not perfect copies of the parent DNA.
My problem is both of the above mechanisms seem predominately subtractive ( but certainly not always).
Subtractive from what?
In evolution we see change in the DNA, that change can either be point replacements, deletions of sections, additions of extra copies of sections, and flip-flop reversals of sections of DNA. These can change the proteins that are produced during the gestation process of offspring, sometimes with lethal results (accounting for the high number of failed conceptions), sometimes with beneficial results, often with little noticeable results (most mutations in offspring that survive to gestation are neutral).
The process of selection then determines whether new mutations add (are beneficial to the individuals survival and reproduction), subtract (are deleterious to the individuals survival and reproduction), or cause no apparent change (are neutral to the individuals survival and reproduction).
Certainly an individual that becomes better at survival or reproduction due to a mutation, and thus produces more offspring during their lifetime than other individuals of a species has had an additive benefit, yes?
Evolution in general is a gradual process of modification right?
Generally yes, however there are some mutations that can cause more rapid observable change than others, particularly if they occur in the parts of DNA that control the sequence of growth and the proteins that are produced during the gestation process of offspring.
Can someone explain why some snakes are not poisonous while others have a most elaborate tool box with behavioral procedures for target identification et. al. Although not a philosophical question, I just have trouble surmising a simultaneous evolution of all the subsystems as well as why would some snakes have this capability and lose it. It would always be useful for enhanced species proppagation, would it not?
Poisonous systems have evolved in a number of species. Usually a poisonous species evolves from a non-poisonous one, however it is possible for such a trait to be lost if there is no survival benefit to it (say on an island with no predators that are affected by the poisons, and plentiful food that can be caught without needing to be immobilized).
Generally speaking, these systems evolve from existing systems with a change in the proteins produced such that a venomous substance is produced instead of a previous non-venomous substance.
And yes, evolving such a system would likely result in increased survival, and as long as it does not affect reproduction, would be generally beneficial.
Does that answer your questions?
Enjoy.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Burnerjack, posted 07-31-2010 8:54 PM Burnerjack has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 13 (598033)
12-27-2010 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by wolfwing
12-27-2010 7:09 AM


Welcome to the fray wolfwing, nice post.
2 sense like this always welcome.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by wolfwing, posted 12-27-2010 7:09 AM wolfwing has not replied

  
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