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Author Topic:   Evolution of Altruism
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 51 of 103 (585964)
10-10-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Stephen Push
10-10-2010 8:49 AM


Hi, Stephen.
Welcome to EvC!
There are three points I want to make that I don’t think have been adequately made so far on this thread:
  1. Evolution happens in populations. The existence of an individual who exhibits trait A does not demonstrate that trait A is being selected for in the overall population: all it demonstrates is that trait A exists. For example, is blindness selected for in humans? How can we explain all the people who are born blind if blindness is not being selected for?
    I’m not convinced that true altruism (i.e. sacrificing one’s life for another) is all that common in the human species, so I question the claim that it is being selected for. If it were being selected for, I would expect it to be a lot more common than it actually is.
    -----
  2. Not all characteristics can be selected for by evolution. As Bolder-dash wrote, there probably is no gene for altruism: thus, there is nothing there for natural selection to select for. It’s possible that altruism is a side effect of other things that are selected for (e.g. cooperative behavior), and that the death of an occasional altruist is not a strong enough negative side effect to offset the positive effects of a more generalized pattern of cooperative social behavior.
    -----
  3. Risk is an inherently difficult thing to work with. There is a whole branch of foraging theory that attempts to deal with risk, and with how much risk an organism is willing to tolerate in order to meet some other requirement (e.g. food).
    Example: A hunter needs to enter the woods to find food, but, if he enters the woods, he risks an encounter with a deadly, venomous snake. How does he decide whether to risk the snake attack or not?
    Example: A man needs to protect his family from an attacking mob, but, if he steps up to protect them, he risks being killed himself. How does he decide whether to risk being killed himself to save his family? How does he decide how hard he should try (e.g. how much risk he should take) to protect progressively more distant relatives?
    It seems a bit dubious to me to suggest that evolution would be able to endow a person with the talent of judging when a certain level of risk or self-sacrifice or charity is biologically appropriate or advantageous. It may be that all acts of self-sacrifice are completely unwarranted evolutionarily, and are simply the result of imperfect judgment.
Edited by Bluejay, : minor cosmetic changes

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Stephen Push, posted 10-10-2010 8:49 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Stephen Push, posted 10-10-2010 9:20 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 62 of 103 (586089)
10-11-2010 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Stephen Push
10-10-2010 9:20 PM


Hi, Stephen.
Stephen Push writes:
I think almost everyone is altruistic to some degree.
Probably so. My point is that the altruism that everyone shows to some degree is pretty trivial evolutionarily speaking. Donating to a charity, volunteering for a community center, giving your brother the last piece of pie or letting your aging mother-in-law live in your basement are not really evolutionary sacrifices, so they’re moot points for this discussion.
Only more extreme versions of altruism (i.e., altruism involving the actual sacrifice or risk of one’s life or reproductive capacity) will have real implications for evolution. Any risks short of that could easily be outweighed by the benefits received from social living, so they can hardly be seen as challenges to evolution.
I’m certain that absolute altruism, or the willingness to sacrifice one’s life for someone else’s life, isn’t tested commonly enough to really know how prevalent it is among humans, but I suspect that it’s a lot lower than movies and books would have us believe.
-----
Stephen Push writes:
It's almost certainly not a single gene. The trait is probably affected by many genes, expressed to varying degrees in various situations, and enhanced or muted to a great extent by culture and learning.
Obviously. But, it’s just easier to consider conceptual problems in genetics when we assume that everything is due to a single gene.
The thing is that the trait may not be encoded on genes at all: it may be a side effect of traits that are encoded on genes. For instance, a putative gene for cooperative behaviors and a putative gene for adrenaline-craving could easily intertwine to create an altruistic behavior---a hero complex---without the altruistic behavior itself being a distinct gene that evolution could work on directly.
In this case, cooperative behaviors and adrenaline-craving could be selected for in combination, but, selecting for the combination will also result in some individuals in the population that will have only one trait or the other. So, the heritability of the altruistic behavior would be somewhat low, which dampens the ability of evolution to work on it.
-----
Stephen Push writes:
Altruism need not require detailed risk calculations. It could be nothing more than a compulsion to help others that, in some situations, overcomes self-protecting drives such as fear or hunger.
No, there need not be a detailed risk calculation---at least, not one that is selected for with any precision. That was my point.
Selection is highly probabilistic, and it works on the level of a population: so, while a trait of altruism may generally improve life for the individual due to the social benefits received in return, the same trait of altruism may occasionally drive some individuals to sacrifice themselves.
But, the question then becomes whether the beneficial effects of a trait for altruism outweigh the risks of martyrdom for most individuals who have the trait. If only a small percentage of altruistic beings really make the ultimate evolutionary sacrifice, while, for the rest, the benefits outweigh the sacrifices, it’s hard to see how natural selection would work against the altruistic trait.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Stephen Push, posted 10-10-2010 9:20 PM Stephen Push has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 64 of 103 (586092)
10-11-2010 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Bolder-dash
10-10-2010 9:36 PM


Hi, Bolder-dash.
I would like to point out that the challenge presented to evolutionists on this thread was to provide a way that the Theory of Evolution could explain altruism, not to demonstrate that altruism evolved.
Not all of science is about demonstrating X and Y: a substantial portion of academic work involves massaging our paradigms with speculative reasoning in order to determine what really is and what really isn't a challenge to our paradigms. Theoretical work like this is always speculative, but the speculation is an important component.
If you want to deny us the right to devote some of our efforts to thinking and assessing without experimenting, then I doubt anybody is going to regard you as a particularly useful influence in this dicussion.
Also, I would suggest that, if you really must deny us the right, you at least try to do so in a thread in which the OP did not directly request that we exercise this right.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-10-2010 9:36 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 12:04 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 77 of 103 (586812)
10-15-2010 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Bolder-dash
10-15-2010 12:04 AM


Hi, Bolder-dash.
Bolder-dash writes:
Don't you first need to show that altruism did in fact evolve, before you can begin to speculate wildly on how?
Um... no. That was what my post just said. Do you want to just keep going back and forth, repeating this?
Look, we've been asked to speculate, to tell stories that make sense. In science, this step comes before the "demonstration" step. This is so we have an idea of what to demonstrate before we try to demonstrate it.
Doesn't that make sense?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 12:04 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 2:38 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
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