EvC Forum: Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God

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Topic: Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God

Panda

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Message 4 of 56 (595182)
12-07-2010 8:55 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-07-2010 7:45 AM

jar writes:

But the key question is that even if we're able to reach some rough agreements about dates, events, travel routes, number of people, how does one get from "the Exodus happened" to "God exists"? Whatever rationale is identified, it must be one that is sufficiently nuanced that it doesn't reach wrong conclusions about other similar circumstances. For example, this rationale cannot begin with "Troy exists" to reach the conclusion that "Athena, Eris, Aphrodite, Zeus and Hera exist."

I agree with you.

Surely the only evidence of God in the bible is his contact with people and miracles.
Since an exodus is not a miracle and neither does it require god to contact people, I see no reason for the exodus to support the existance of god.

But I have normally seen the exodus discussed under different circumstances:
Theist: "The Bible is all true."
Atheist: "No it isn't."
Theist: "Name something in the Bible that is not true."
Atheist: "The Exodus."

I would expect the theist's thoughts to be:
1) The Exodus happened.
2) Therefore nothing in the Bible has been disproved.
3) Thefore the Bible is true.
4) Therefore God exists.
The exodus is mainly used as corroborative evidence of god rather than conclusive proof.

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	Message 1 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 7:45 AM		jar has replied

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	Message 6 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 10:04 AM		Panda has replied

Panda

Member (Idle past 3743 days)

Posts: 2688

From: UK

Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 8 of 56 (595197)
12-07-2010 11:18 AM

Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-07-2010 10:04 AM

Re: Remember, I am not just a theist but a Christian.

jar writes:

Well, I'm a theist and so let's look at your argument as presented above through a theist's eyes.

Maybe I took too much for granted, but I hoped that when I said "theist" it was understood that I meant "theist that believes that the Exodus supports a belief in God".
Well, hopefully I've clarified it now.

jar writes:

First issue, item three is not sound. as I point out in the response above, if one story of a collection of stories even by the same author happened to be shown to be factually true, it does not imply that a different story even by the same author is factually true.

And the reverse is true too. A false story does not prove a whole book wrong.

A person's belief in the bible being true could be brought into doubt if someone showed that it isn't all true.
But if others fail to prove that the bible contains false information, then all believers can continue to believe.
A lack of disproof allows believers to continue to believe everything in the bible.
And most people don't like having to change their beliefs - it tends to cause cognitive dissonance.

(Granted, a completely irrational person wouldn't care either way - even if the pope found a missing page saying "All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.")

jar writes:

Even if the Exodus could be confirmed (and so far I have not seen anyone present a way to confirm that the Exodus even happened), all that it can show is that one particular event is true.

But if you were defending your bible from people claiming that "The exodus never happened therefore your bible is wrong!" then evidence of the exodus would be very welcome.

I think the exodus issue is often meant to break the 'inerrant' bible claims (mainly made by 'literalists').
But IMHO I don't think it is much use for anything else.

Edited by Panda, : used wrong word

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	Message 6 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 10:04 AM		jar has replied

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	Message 10 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 11:48 AM		Panda has replied

Panda

Member (Idle past 3743 days)

Posts: 2688

From: UK

Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 11 of 56 (595201)
12-07-2010 11:53 AM

Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-07-2010 11:48 AM

Re: so next step.

jar writes:

So if someone took the step that the Exodus as a fact means support for the existence of their God, does the fact of the existence of Troy support the existence of Zeus, Hera, Athena, Eris and Aphrodite?

How would the two differ?

This has been addressed in my first post. Message 4

I am not sure why you are repeating your question.

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	Message 10 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 11:48 AM		jar has replied

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Panda

Member (Idle past 3743 days)

Posts: 2688

From: UK

Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 16 of 56 (595206)
12-07-2010 12:16 PM

Reply to: Message 15 by jar
12-07-2010 12:04 PM

Re: so next step.

jar writes:

To see if someone can show how the two examples differ.

Not me.

I was discussing, not disagreeing.

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	Message 15 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 12:04 PM		jar has not replied

Panda

Member (Idle past 3743 days)

Posts: 2688

From: UK

Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 41 of 56 (595299)
12-07-2010 9:28 PM

Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
12-07-2010 9:06 PM

Re: What is the Exodus?

Jon writes:

If we can find evidence that X never happened, then it disproves the existence of the 'God who did X'. If we find evidence that X did happen, then it provides support for the 'God who did X'though, admittedly, not much. Before finding that X happened, it is unknown whether the 'God who did X' is possible or not. Finding that X happened, then, makes the 'God who did X' a possibility; I'd say this is an example of adding support.

And, of course, you can replace 'God' with anything, and X with anything as well (so long as X does not contain a reference to 'God' or whatever takes its place).

Harry Potter built the Eiffel Tower.
Flying Speghetti Monsters built the Eiffel Tower.
Unicorns built the Eiffel Tower.

Yeah - they are all possibilities now.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide and off-topic banner; Change subtitle.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Undo previous edit - See here.

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	Message 40 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 9:06 PM		Jon has replied

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	Message 42 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 9:35 PM	Panda has replied
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Panda

Member (Idle past 3743 days)

Posts: 2688

From: UK

Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 43 of 56 (595302)
12-07-2010 9:46 PM

Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-07-2010 9:35 PM

Re: Try to be serious folk.

jar writes:

How can a piece of evidence be connected to the Biblical Exodus?

How could a chariot wheel be shown to be connected to the specific army mentioned in the story?

Would we need to know the characteristics of a the Egyptian chariots for a particular era?

To know that would we need to know precisely which Pharaoh?

Archeologists are the people to do this: they have the tools and the know-how.
They would be able to date and connect artifacts found in the area.
They would be able to prove/disprove the exodus event.

But they would not be able to find any evidience for a god, unless they found evidence that a miracle had occurred.

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