quote:
Originally posted by buzsaw
Also in Genesis 35:19, we read that Rachael was burried in the way of Ephrata which is Behtlehem. So we see the name not only refers a person by the name of Bethlehem who was the son of Ephrata, but that this location was evidently named after Ephrata's son, Bethlehem.
There are alot of misconceptions is this statement. More than I can properly address in one post, however, some points are:
1)Interestingly, the phrase "which is Bethlehem" here in Gen. is an anachronistic reference. I Chr. 2:51 lists Salma as the progenitor of "Beth-lehem". Salma was Caleb's grandson and Caleb was Jacob's great-great grandson. So Ephrath could not have been known as Bethlehem when Jacob's wife (Rachel) died.
2)As mentioned in point #1, Ephratah (Ephrath), wife of Caleb, did not have a son named Bethlehem. Ephratah begat Hur begat Salma (who was the progenitor of the Beth-Lehem).
3)Asgara is correct in stating that in Micah 5:2 (the verse Matthew cites for his Bethlehem birth), the reference is to the clan or house (beit) of Lehem. The relevant phrase is "v'atah beit-Lekhem Ephratah". "v'atah" is the preposition "and" with the 2nd person
masculine pronoun "you" (i.e. "and you, house of Lekhem {from}Ephratah). In absence of a neuter pronoun, the
masculine is used for clans and lineages and the
feminine(v'at) is used for the names of towns or cities.
Also, cf. IChr. 2:54 where it is made clear that the recorded posterity of Salma is referring to clans:
IChr. 2:54 "The sons (progeny) of Salma(are); Beth (house of)-lehem, and the Netophathites, Ataroth (i.e. crowns of) the house of Joab, and half of the Manahethites, the Zorites."
And also, I Sam. 17:12 "And David was the son of this man from Ephrat of the house of Lehem (mibeit-lehem) in Judah . . ."
There are several other problems involving the alleged Bethlehem birth prophecy found in Matthew:
1)In Micah 5:2 , the KJV mistranslates the phrase "from days of old" as "from everlasting". It is intensely interesting that of the six places where this phrase appears in the OT, it is only mistranslated in Micah 5:2, as if to make it appear more in line with Matthew's assertions.
2)Matthew completely reverses the phrase in the OT, "though thou be little among the thousands of Judah", to read "thou art not the least among the princes of Judah" in the NT.
3)The generic title of ruler in the OT is replaced with the specific position of Governor In the NT.
4)The author of the Gospel of Matthew uses a truncated version of Micah 5:1[2] in Matthew 2:6.
For those interested in a more in-depth study, I have included the following link, from which much of the above information was accessed.
Forbidden
quote:
Originally posted by buzsaw
According to Matthew 2 about verses 4,5, Herod inquired of the chief priests and elders as to where the messiah was to be born and they referred to this reference that according to the prophet he was to be born in Bethlehem. Thus Herod issued the order to slaughter the little children of that area. I believe this source would trump your opinion and choose to go with it.
Considering the mistakes Matthew makes and the liberties he takes with the OT text, this un-extrabiblically documented story of the "slaughter of the innocents" is hardly a trump source.
For instance, Matthew has Joseph and Mary fleeing to Egypt from Bethlehem. Whereas, Luke 2:22 says: "And when the days of her (Mary's) purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him (Jesus) to Jerusalem, to present (offer sacrifice) to the Lord." Luke 2:39 "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth." As opposed again to Matthew who says that upon returning from Egypt, they turned into Galilee out of fear of returning to Bethlehem.
And there is much, much more that time and space will not allow to be presented in this post.
Perhaps we can talk further,
Amlodhi
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