True Creation's Culdra Theory

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Not exactly, unless I missunderstood. the Impact would have produced a larger crater by the factor of characteristics of the ground hit. After-all, it would matter whether it hit silt or titanium alloy would it not (analogetic)?

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Not really when your talking about velocities of the order of kilometers per second and up the speed of the impact is greater than the maximum possible speed of the compression wave through the impacted material. This means that the energy of the impact arrives faster than it can disipate, the resulting build up of energy vapourises material from the impacted surface...What you said implys that you think that cratering is caused by a denting effect like a stone thrown at a sheet of soft metal, in fact the mechanism is more like letting off a nuclear device, instant vapouisation of material in a bowl shaped region.....

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
So the impacted material makes no effect in size. So, considering my analogy, if a crater were to hit a earth-sized sphere of titanium alloy, vs. a sphere of sand creates no variance in the characteristic of the crater?

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The size of the crater varies by the maximum speed that a compression wave can travel through the material and by the amount of energy needed to vapourise a given volume of the material....your titanium alloy example implied a belief that an ability to resist deformation mattered....

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Compairing your two statments, it seems as if it does matter, does it not?

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Your example was based on the differences in the materials ability to resist deformation I disagreed with your example in that the differences in crater size and morphology are dependant on other factors than the "hardness" of the impacted material....I`m sorry but you did claim to have college level physics.....

Unless impacts of the required scale happen far more frequently than is currently believed there hasn`t been enough time (6,000 to 10,000 years) for all the impacts to occur that caused the craters. Hence TC needs an alternate mechanism of crater formation to avoid conflict with his belief in special creation a la genesis.....

Found this site with images of large terrestrial impact craters :
http://www.hawastsoc.org/solar/eng/tercrate.htm#viewsSo TC any of these candidates for explanation by your theory?

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
...its a subject I would like to do some research on after I'm finished with my Bio book.

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I actually did a fairly extensive lab project on hypervelocity impacts on glass when I was in my final year at uni. We fired small (.5mm diameter) steel ballbearings at 1 1/4" thick glass disks with a two stage light gas gun at various velocities to determine the velocity dependance of crater size....Wish you could have seen the mess it made of those glass blanks...In the end we found as expected that the crater volume was proportional to the kinetic energy of the particle... those little balls didn`t weigh much but given that we got some moving at 7 Kms^-1 they had enough punch to knock a big hole into the glass...If you want to learn the basic physics of impact crater formation try doing a search for hypervelocity, impacts, craters, or a mixture thereof (I recomend ask jeeves.com) NASA have some great sites on this sort of modelling. (the research is primarily to do with safety specifications for space craft) however the physics of cratering do not change with the scale of the bodies....

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
1)Thanx, I'll have to do that, I was planning on taking a little trip to a local university library for some reference on this. Though I'm still working in biology, I might be able to squeeze it in there possibly.

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2)I am starting to speculate on whether such an impact would effect it in the way that most scientists would speculate, as some conditions of the time of the Flood such as vapor saturation and condensation, and atmospheric density. I am quite sure atmospheric pressure would effect your calculation.

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3)ALso, has the dip erroded or have I not looked close enough at the impact on many of them such as the barringer.

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1)If you do look for papers by Dr M.J.Burchell, they may be too spacecraft specific but you could probably use the bibliographies to find other more general papers....2)Those factors wouldn`t make any difference past the point when the body hit the ground, however a more viscous atmosphere would reduce the size of the body during its passage down to earth and could possibly slow it to a limited degree (not enough to drop it below hypervelocity though).....3)Actually if you look at Manicouagan what you see is that the crater floor has not eroded and the rim has....In fact the harder impact metamorphised rock of the crater floor is often covered by the eroded material of the rim, thus giving the impression of a soft eroded region at the centre....

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
1)Yes, though the atmosphere as a whole would not make such a difference, being that atmospheric pressure would require some sort of preasure by some force, there by reducing the size of the atmosphere. Unless you would take into consideration that some of the atmosphere has separated from the gravitational force of the earth into space by some force or another during the flood. Either way, I would doubt it would make much of a significance, as joz mentioned, it would not decrease below a hypervelocity.

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2)Seeing jupiter is composed of practically nothing but gas accept theoretically at its core. We may have spotted a slight effect from collision with the dense gasious atmosphere, though I don't know about the impact (if it did impact before being ripped appart). So I don't believe it would be the atmosphere breaking the body up.

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3)What would force its energy to be released directionally toward earth's core, or in the direction of the impacting body?

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4)There would have been an emense amount of oceanic water quickly evaporated from the outpouring of magma at ridges. I would estimate roughly 300 metres of water being thrown into the atmosphere, this would saturate the earth with vapor creating the effect of a global nuclear winter which would also as this persisted while introducing your 40 days of rain. After most of the polar ice sheets were melted, would then be reproduced by this effect. For any impacting body into the earth would take into consideration this emense mass of vapor engulfing most of the earth's atmosphere would allow any sediment particles small enough to stay adrift in the atmosphere to condensate with the water and fall to the ground.

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1)Don`t get me wrong TC the viscosity of the atmosphere does influence the speed at impact and also size at impact all I was saying is that even a really thick atmosphere would be unlikely to drop the speed below hypervelocity (into the region ehere speed of impact is less than the speed of propogation of a shock wave in the impacted material) thus the mechanism of crater formation remains the same....Also the crater size is dependant on kinetic energy ie 1/2mv<sup>2</sup> given the size (volume) of a crater we can tell what its K.E was but not its mass, velocity, volume, density etc....2)Um bud Jupiter is solid its just called a gas giant because its composed of materials that are gasses in the terrestrial environment....And yes SL9 (or rather the fragmented masses that had been SL9) hit jupiter and it put a bloody big hole in it as well...3)In a hypervelocity impact the energy isn`t released towards anything it is released as heat at the point of impact....resulting in something rather like a nuclear device being detonated at just below ground level....If you wan`t to read a S.F novel featuring impacts like this pick up Heinleins The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (it also features Mycroft Holmes a Turing machine of sorts and the brilliant homespun wisdom TANSTAAFL (There Ain`t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch))...4)Um bud meters is a unit of length I think you mean m³ (volume) this is still only 300 tons by the way.....Also why would ice sheets melt during a "nuclear winter" type effect....

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Originally posted by gene90:
I'm confused. Do you mean, what would cause the energy to be absorbed primarily by the ground? If so, there are two reasons for that. The biggest drop in impactor velocity would occur when it contacts the ground because the ground is more rigid than air, imparting most of its energy into the ground. Also because the ground is a better carrier of shock, it will tend to contain most of the pressure waves imparted to it from impact rather than transfering them into the air.

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Actually because the impact velocity is greater than the maximum speed of propogation of a shock wave in the impacted material the energy "arrives" faster than it can dissipate. This means that only a small fraction is released in a shock wave, the rest is released as heat and light at the point of impact.....

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
I don't believe there is a problem with enough water to cover the planet (though it would be possibly be denser in some areas).....

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Um bud if you mean the water (liquid state) would be denser you are wrong, fluids are incompressable, thats how come such gadgets as hydraulics work....

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Hm.. Well we can figure this by knowing the approx radius of earth, being 6378 (you could do more if you like, the difference would not be drastically significant, though significant in the least). So the Volume of Earth=1086781292542.9608km³, now take approx .5 off of your initial variable and your volume=1086525719613.2539³, thus you subtract and get roughly 255572929.7069km³ of water I believe if my calculations are correct.

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Hmm radius of earth = 6.378E⁸volume of water between surface and depth = 300m is:volume of sphere of radius R_e - volume of sphere radius R_e - 300m all multiplied by 0.7 (ratio of ocean covered area / surface area)Plugged into http://www.cris.com/~borisitk/bignum.html we get:V(H₂O) = 5.12E⁷⁹m³That is a lot.....Can the atmosphere accomodate that much water before reaching saturation? I have my doubts.....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 03-03-2002]

Um Gene could you look up at message 31 please, you mentioned that the earth is a better carrier of shock waves than the atmosphere (true)....However the energy arrives faster than the shockwave can dissipate it, due to the impact happening at a faster speed than the maximum speed of propogation through the impacted material, this leads to a massive build up of energy that disperses as light and heat (vaporising the nearby material and the impactor) which form the crater....Hence only a small fraction of the energy is dissipated as a shock wave.....Sorry if you already saw post 31 but I didn`t see any aknowledgement so I wasn`t sure.....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 03-04-2002]

Also the release of heat causes vaporisation of the impacted (and impacting) material thus forming the crater itself, also the hard crater floor is a result of heat metamorphism....