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Author Topic:   Why is it VERSUS?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 103 (603004)
02-02-2011 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
02-01-2011 10:14 AM


Re: I am what I am
The laws of physics make evolution by random mutation and natural selection incompatible with the notion of creation - even by foresight - via divine means. It's physically impossible, due to Bell's Inequality, for your putative god to know, in advance, what the outcome of randomness in the universe would be.
It's not a function of God's ability or inability; Bell's Inequality puts a constraint on the actual nature of the universe, such that randomness isn't simply our inability to understand or perceive a hidden determinism, it's that no such hidden determinism actually exists. The knowledge that God would have to have simply doesn't exist. It's a constraint of the physical universe.
Random mutation truly is random - i.e., non-deterministic and unpredictable except stochastically. God would have to have true deterministic knowledge of the outcome of random mutations in order to "create by means of evolution" and that, as we've seen, is an impossibility. (Also, gods are known to not exist.)
The reason we say "Creation Vs. Evolution" is because the two views are fundamentally incompatible; evolution by random mutation and natural selection in a Bell's Inequality universe precludes the notion that this is all the result of divine planning.
This seems wrong in terms of theology, physics, and biology.
A theologian would tell you that God does not know the future by accurately extrapolating from the present, but rather by seeing it happen from the perspective of eternity.
A physicist would tell you that Bell's inequality only shows that a theory of local hidden variables can't account for quantum mechanics. There'd be nothing to stop an omniscient God from observing Bohm's quantum potential.
As for biology, there is no need whatsoever for the mutations to be random in the sense of genuinely non-deterministic. They could be as deterministic as a coin toss in classical mechanics; it makes no difference. (Note that everyone who simulates evolution on a computer uses a completely deterministic pseudorandom number generator rather than some elaborate quantum device.) So even if some theist was fussed by the idea of non-determinism, he'd need to deny, not evolution in general, nor random mutation in particular, but rather the Copenhagen Interpretation.

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 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2011 10:14 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 103 (603136)
02-02-2011 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
02-02-2011 6:50 PM


Re: I am what I am
Can you now, in the opening line, see the first mistake, from the point of view of a logical evaluation?
"the proviral remnants of ancient viral infections of the primate lineage"
OK, try: "what looks in every way exactly like the proviral remnants of ancient viral infections of the primate lineage".
That is a conclusion right there.
Obviously the language of scientists reflects what they know to be true.
If you doubted the existence of elephants, I should tell you that I have seen several elephants. And, yes, that is conclusory language. What I would say if you objected to this manner of speaking is that I have often experienced sense-data which were entirely consistent with the theory that I was looking at an elephant.
Better?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 02-02-2011 6:50 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 41 of 103 (603137)
02-02-2011 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
02-02-2011 6:10 PM


Re: I am what I am
The truth, for me, is that evolution is a step too far and does not always bare relevance to science.
And the truth, for scientists, is that you are dead wrong.
The facts can go no further than tracing all humanity to two individuals. Now if you can perform an experiment showing macro-evolution, as operational science, fair enough, but the students should be told that you do not have to infer molecules-to-man evolution simply because a bacteria can adapt.
Quite so --- they should be taught the actual reasons why it is inferred, rather than being presented with a witless strawman invented by creationists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 02-02-2011 6:10 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 103 (603138)
02-02-2011 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
02-02-2011 10:35 AM


Re: I am what I am
If you really are honest, you will admitt that when you see a bird fly, with such grace and ability, or when you move with autonomy, with complete ease, then you can see that these animals are not just a matter of atoms, but that they are wonderfully designed.
No argument or theory can convince me that my eyes are not telling me the truth.
But you are (perhaps unwittingly) being untruthful.
It is not your eyes that cause you to believe in creationist nonsense.
Your eyes just tell you that birds fly gracefully; just as they tell you that snowflakes are beautiful, that "fairy rings" are circular, and that the Giant's Causeway is regular.
It is your dogma that tells you that you should ascribe the flight of birds to an invisible creator without ascribing snowflakes to Jack Frost, fairy rings to fairies, or the Giant's Causeway to giants.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 02-02-2011 10:35 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 43 of 103 (603139)
02-02-2011 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mike the wiz
02-02-2011 5:54 PM


Re: I am what I am
If you genuinely know that little about the fossil record, the scientific method, and the Cambrian explosion, maybe these are subjects that we could take up on another thread.
I feel we are in danger of clogging this one with your nonsense. The topic is not, after all: "What mike the wiz doesn't know about science, evolution, fossils, genetics, logic, and the difference between what he sees and his false beliefs about what he sees."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 02-02-2011 5:54 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 02-03-2011 7:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 72 of 103 (603314)
02-03-2011 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mike the wiz
02-03-2011 7:00 AM


Re: I am what I am
You say that after four consecutive rants at me. Please Dr Inadequate - just get over me already.
If by that you mean that you should like me to stop pointing out your mistakes, I really don't see why I should.
But I would once again suggest that these are mistakes that would be more appropriately made on another thread, one to which they bear a hint of a smidgen of an iota of relevance to the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 02-03-2011 7:00 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 80 of 103 (603948)
02-09-2011 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by GDR
02-09-2011 12:48 AM


Re: Predestination.
I see him as saying that if everything from atoms, to molecules, to cells, to complex life forms and consciousness just occurred by chance or by accident, then we have no reason to be able to trust the reason that was produced by that process.
Well, let's leave aside the "chance or accident" misrepresentation for now.
What is dumb about this argument is that the supposed reductio ad absurdum that he wishes to derive from the atheist viewpoint is in fact true and known to be true. Of course our reason is not trustworthy. We know this. We make mistakes, we forget things, some of us are insane, some of us are retarded. Over 90 of us will fail the "Four Card Test". If we lived in a world where no-one made a mistake and in which (in particular) scientists were always right, then his critique might have some value. But we live in a world where we stumble from error to error and where our science is an inadequate thing that continually needs fixing.
We have "no reason to be able to trust reason" not as a consequence of atheistic or materialistic or Darwinian premises, but simply because we know for certain that our reason is not trustworthy.
If it is the case that the existence of God would imply that our reason was trustworthy, then that would constitute a disproof of the existence of God, because it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by GDR, posted 02-09-2011 12:48 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by GDR, posted 02-09-2011 10:49 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 90 of 103 (604052)
02-09-2011 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by GDR
02-09-2011 10:49 AM


Re: Predestination.
If evolutionary processes didn't have coherence then Lewis is suggesting that we would not be able to have confidence in our ability to have faith in our conclusions.
And my point would be that we are not, in fact, able to enjoy such confidence. What he means as a reductio ad absurdum of the atheist point of view is in fact completely true. We do the best that we can to be right, but we have no ultimate grounds for "confidence" or "faith" that our best is good enough. Let us once doubt our reason, and we cannot reason ourselves out of this doubt. And once the doubt has been admitted, it cannot be expelled by appeal to belief in God, since that might be one more of our mistakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by GDR, posted 02-09-2011 10:49 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 02-10-2011 12:11 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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