Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,929 Year: 4,186/9,624 Month: 1,057/974 Week: 16/368 Day: 16/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 69 of 187 (604129)
02-10-2011 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
The DNA of a tree is a set of instructions for making a tree
Yes I agree.
A house blueprint is a set of instructions for making a house.
A automobile blueprint is a set of instructions for making a car.
A airplane blueprint is a set of instructions for making a airplane.
Conclusion:
The tree DNA contains a set of instructions for the making of the tree.
The house blueprint contains a set of instructions for the making of a house.
Sounds like the same thing to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 3:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:14 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 11:27 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 74 of 187 (604153)
02-10-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 4:08 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Why should we think that there was any such intelligence?
Then you shouldn't mind sharing with me the source of the information in the DNA of the first seed then.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:08 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 76 of 187 (604158)
02-10-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 4:14 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
A house blueprint is a set of instructions for making a house.
No it isn't. It's a diagram of what the house should look like when it's built. It contains no instructions whatsoever as to how this aim is to be achieved. From the blueprint alone, one wouldn't even know that it is necessary to build the ground floor before building the upstairs.
I am glad you are not in the construction business.
If the first page of a blueprint which is a rendition of what the finished product including landscaping, and driveways will look like is all you would ever look at to build the house you would probably leave out a lot of things that the inspector would look at on the bluprints and ask why you did not put them in.
Like on the foundation page where it shows the cross sections of the foundation and gives the exact dimensions the footer is to built too. With the number and size of rebar with the distance the rebar chairs are to be set to hold the rebar off the ground that has been compacted to the density specified. The placement and method of connection of the verticle rebar that must be eventually extended to the lintel. The treatment the ground must undergo before you can pour the concrete at the specified psi.
There are many other instructions on the footer page but I think that is enough for you to get the idea you are blowing smoke.
BTW there is also a framing page, an external wall page, a HVAC page, a plumbing page, a electrical page, a roofing page.
Each of these pages give the specific instructions where each of the different items are to be placed, as well as their specifications.
So you are confusing a picture with a blueprint.
That would be the same as looking at a cell and saying that is the DNA of the cell.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:14 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:07 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 106 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2011 8:58 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 77 of 187 (604159)
02-10-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 4:19 AM


Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Your belief that the universe was created ex nihilo does not affect this point.
Have you never read anything I have written?
You should know by now that I do not believe in ex nihilo creation of the universe.
I believe the universe has always existed.
Science is the one that demands the universe have a beginning not me.
Now if you could give the the exact date of "In the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 I would have to agree that the universe did not exist past that date and had to have a beginning to exist.
I may be dense, I may be dumb, I may be uneducated but I am not stupid. But it is impossible to get something to exist out of non existence.
Now if you would like to educate me as to how existence could begin to exist out of non existence please start a thread and let the teaching begin.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:19 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 187 (604160)
02-10-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Blue Jay
02-10-2011 10:23 AM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
I hope this makes more sense now.
Are you telling me all those trees came from the same seed?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 10:23 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 12:16 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 80 of 187 (604166)
02-10-2011 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
02-10-2011 11:27 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
All of which are different than DNA. If you throw a blueprint onto a pile of building materials does a house appear? No. If you throw DNA into a cell is something built from that DNA? Yes. Obviously, there is something very different between a blueprint and DNA.
I don't think I ever said DNA and a blueprint are the same thing.
I did say a house blueprint contains a set of instructions from the preparations of the ground to the finish product of a house including everything in the house and even the landscaping of the lot. That is what is required before you can get a building permit.
I did say the DNA of a tree cell contains a set of instructions to build the structure in which that cell resides.
The house blueprint is not a living organism thus requires human intervention to acomplish its goal.
The DNA is part of a living organism and is self replicating and only requires its beginning to exist to be able to reproduce its self as the designer specified.
So yes they are quite different.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 11:27 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:09 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 12:13 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 89 of 187 (604181)
02-10-2011 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 12:00 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
DNA has almost no homology to the actual organisms its inside; there's nothing that looks like a branch or a leaf inside the DNA of a tree.
Who said there was a picture of a branch or a leaf inside the DNA of a tree.
The DNA codes for the leaf to appear in specific places as it does for the branches, as well as the bark.
crashfrog writes:
Actual blueprints don't contain any instructions at all,
I will assume from that statement you have never looked at a blueprint. If you did you did not know what you were looking at.
Since I have drawn many blueprints that was approved by engineers of the county that issued the permit to build structures I humbly disagree with you that a blueprint don't contain any instructions.
If on the footer page I draw the layout of the footer specifying the footer will be 10' from the side property lines, 25' from the rear property line and 40' from the front property line to the outside of the footer and then specify that the footer will be 24" wide and 10" deep with 3 #6 rebar with chairs 3' apart with a 4' verticle #6 rebar laped 2' and tied to footer rebar (I could specify welded) above each chair at 3' intervals.
These instructions along with all other instructions for the construction of the house has been approved by the building department.
You then look at the elevation page of the blueprint and dig a footer 16" wide 5' from the east property and 15' from from the west property line. You decide you want a larger back yard of you place the front of the footer 10' from the front property line and the rear footer at 55' from the property line. You then proceed to put 2 #5 rebar on the chairs and you put 1 4' #5 rebar verticle at each corner laped 2' and tied to footer rebar.
You got everything ready for your inspection so you call for a footer inspection.
The inspector comes to do his inspection and the first question he asks is where are your blueprints. You are supposed to have them displayed on the jobsite. You get them for him and his next question is where is your fumigation papers. You say I don't have any. He says well before I do my inspection you must have the ground fumigated for termites. When that is done call and I will come back and inspect your footer.
You comply and get the ground treated and then call for your footer inspection.
The inspector returns and takes the prints he sees the specifications for your footer on the prints and looks at the footer you have dug and the steel you have placed in it. Since he has done thousands of these inspections he says. Your footer is in the wrong place and is not the right size and does not have the right rebar in it.
Make the corrections and call for a reinspection.
But before you call make sure you follow the instructions on the foundation page.
You explain to the inspector but sir Actual blueprints don't contain any instructions at all, they contain homology between the finished construction of the item and the diagrams on the blueprint paper.
He then says call for a foundation inspection after you have hired a contractor to do the work as he will know there is specific instructions on the blueprint that must be followed if you are going to build that house on this lot.
I didn't know any shorter way to stress the point.
If the instructions in the blueprint are not followed you will not get the house designed in the blueprint.
If the DNA instructions are not followed you will not get the tree that is designed in the DNA.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:29 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 99 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 1:57 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 92 of 187 (604188)
02-10-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Blue Jay
02-10-2011 12:16 PM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Neat, I had never thought of trees growing that way I am familiar with several plants and grasses that grow that way.
Bluejay writes:
ICANT writes:
Are you telling me all those trees came from the same seed?
Yes, I am.
Are you sure about that?
Didn't one tree have to grow from the seed?
Didn't that tree put out a root system from which all the other trees had their beginning. Which would have occured when a cell in the root system grew upwards instead of horizontal?
Would any mutations have occured in the cells in the root system that came from the original seed before the second tree was produced from the root system? etc.
So wouldn't that be one tree being produced by the seed and then all the other by mutations in cells along the root system produced all the other trees.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 12:16 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 1:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 94 of 187 (604193)
02-10-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 12:07 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
If you ever decide to build a building of any kind I would advise you to obtain the services of an architect and contractor to do the work.
As you have no idea what you are talking about.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:44 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 102 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 2:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 187 (604196)
02-10-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
02-10-2011 12:13 PM


Re: Tree
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
How did you determine that a designer specified anything in any genome?
If the designer did not put the information in the first cell including the instructions of how to replicate itself where did that information come from?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 12:13 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:45 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 100 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 2:01 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 103 of 187 (604243)
02-10-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 1:29 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
That's what's on a blueprint, a picture of a finished house.
You are confusing the evelation page with the many pages of information that instructs you what to build that follow that page.
crashfrog writes:
DNA codes for proteins. There's no DNA code for "put a leaf here."
Just like there is no DNA codes for put an eye here or put a leg here.
crashfrog writes:
You may have to use some combination of saws, hammers, drills, and other hardware in order to create the finished product and the blueprint has no instructions for the use of saws, hammers, drills, or any other tool.
You are correct the blueprint has no instructions of how or what tools to use to build the house.
The blueprint does contain all the information and specifications to build the house. How you accomplish that is up to you. The process has changed over time. They used to use hatchets and rives to make the boards to build houses out of and before that they used the logs, now we go to Home Depot and purchase them.
If you or your contractor do not build the house according to the information contained in the blueprint and approved by the building department. They can order it demolished and if you do not comply they can fine you and get a contractor to demolish the building for you.
crashfrog writes:
Those are not instructions, those are specifications. Instructions are step-by-step information on how to do something. What you're providing when you provided the specifications of the finished footer is information about what should be done, not how to do it. How to create forms to dimension, how to space rebar, how to mix and pour concrete - those are the instructions on how to create a footer, but those aren't on your blueprint, are they?
Specifications are found in the legend.
Information on the blueprint instructs what to build.
You are not allowed to mix the concrete on the jobsite as it must be the psi concrete in the information provided. If I specify 4400 lb concrete that is what must be used. A sample is to be taken and sent to the lab to make sure the psi is at or above what was specified in the information. If it does not meet the specifications it must be torn out and done over again.
So I am not concerned with how you construct the foundation. I am only concerned with what the foundation is when finished. You can do it as many times as you want until you get it like the information instructs you to build it as the blueprint specifies.
crashfrog writes:
I don't know any stupider way to explain the difference between instructions and specifications,
Definition of specification
A specification is an explicit set of requirements to be satisfied by a material, product, or service.[
Source
In the legend if I specify #6 rebar for foundation steel the steel you use must meet those specifications or be better.
If I give information that instructs that you must place chairs in the footer that is 24" wide that carries 3 #6 rebars and that every 3' you must place a 4' verticle #6 rebar that has a 2' lap on the footer steel either tied or welded and you do not follow the instructions contained in that information the building inspector will red tag the footer.
Definition of information
In general, raw data that (1) has been verified to be accurate and timely, (2) is specific and organized for a purpose, (3) is presented within a context that gives it meaning and relevance, and which (4) leads to increase in understanding and decrease in uncertainty. The value of information lies solely in its ability to affect a behavior, decision, or outcome.
Source
So the information on the bluprint gives instructions as to what to build.
The information of the legend gives the specifications of the products to be used in the construction of the end product of the blueprint.
crashfrog writes:
I don't know any stupider way to explain the difference between instructions and specifications, so I guess you'll just have to take the word of someone smarter than you who's been reading and following blueprints since he was 14. Blueprints don't contain instructions, they contain specifications. DNA doesn't contain specifications for organisms, it contains instructions for making proteins.
That's why DNA is not a blueprint, which is a viewpoint shared by every single professional biologist.
Definition of blueprint.
A blueprint is a type of paper-based reproduction usually of a technical drawing, documenting an architecture or an engineering design. More generally, the term "blueprint" has come to be used to refer to any detailed plan.
Source
Definition of detailed.
1: extended treatment of or attention to particular items
Source
Definition of plan.
1. A scheme, program, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an objective:
Source
So a blueprint is a extended treatment or attention to particular items of a method worked out beforehand to accomplish a specific objective.
Since DNA is the informatin that has been provided for carring out the instructions to accomplish a specific objective, it is a blueprint for what the DNA produces.
crashfrog writes:
DNA instruction failure results in misformed proteins, not in misformed trees, because DNA doesn't contain instructions for making trees it contains instructions for making proteins.
Wouldn't that be the failure of the information in the DNA being translated properly which would cause the wrong protein to be manufactured.
DNA does contain information which contains instructions for making proteins that will produce the specific tree in which that DNA resides in.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:29 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 4:22 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 134 of 187 (604938)
02-16-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Blue Jay
02-10-2011 1:48 PM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
No. I don't think any new trunk derives from a single cell in the root system, so each trunk should be buffered against any mutations that happen in individual cells.
If the tree does not start in a single cell of the root system, where does it come from?
Does it take a group of cells?
What causes the root to begin to grow verticle instead of horizontal if it does not begin in one single cell?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 1:48 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2011 12:09 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 136 of 187 (604962)
02-16-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 1:45 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
Like all other genomic information it evolved by natural selection and random mutation over time.
Do you have any documented evidence that information can be produced outside of an intelligent mind producing it?
Would you agree with the following statements from the National Human Genome Research Institute found Here?
If not, why not?
What is DNA?
We all know that elephants only give birth to little elephants, giraffes to giraffes, dogs to dogs and so on for every type of living creature. But why is this so?
The answer lies in a molecule called deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), which contains the biological instructions that make each species unique. DNA, along with the instructions it contains, is passed from adult organisms to their offspring during reproduction.
What does DNA do?
DNA contains the instructions needed for an organism to develop, survive and reproduce. To carry out these functions, DNA sequences must be converted into messages that can be used to produce proteins, which are the complex molecules that do most of the work in our bodies.
Information
DefinitionBasic data communication theory that applies to the technical processes of encoding a signal for transmission, and provides a statistical description of the message produced by the code. It defines information as choice or entropy and treats the 'meaning' of a message (in the human sense) as irrelevant. Proposed together by the US mathematicians Claude Shannon (1916-2001) and Warren Weaver (1894-1978) in 1949, it focuses on how to transmit data most efficiently and economically, and to detect errors in its transmission and reception.
Source
Would you agree that the information stored in the DNA can do nothing as long as it remains in the DNA?
Would you agree that the information stored in the DNA must be transfered to the ribosomes for a protein to be produced?
Would you agree that the ribosome must have specific information to produce a specific protein?
Speaking about the main functions of ribosomes, they play the role of assembling amino acids to form specific proteins, which in turn are essential for carrying out the cell's activities. As we all have a fair idea regarding production of proteins, the deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) first produces RNA (messenger RNA or mRNA) by the process of DNA transcription, after which genetic message from the mRNA is translated into proteins during DNA translation.
To be more precise about protein synthesis by ribosomes, the sequence for assembling amino acids for protein synthesis are specified in the mRNA. The mRNA synthesized in the nucleus is then transported to the cytoplasm for further continuation of protein synthesis. In the cytoplasm, the two subunits of ribosomes bind around the mRNA polymers and synthesize proteins with the help of transfer RNA (tRNA), as per the genetic code. This whole process of protein synthesis is also referred to as central dogma.
Source
If you do not agree with the information cited please explain why.
Now back to my question.
The information in the DNA is required to reproduce the cell.
The cell can not be reproduced without the information stored in the DNA.
If the cell cannot be reproduced without the information it could not begin to exist without the information.
Where did the original information come from?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2011 3:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 137 of 187 (604969)
02-16-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Blue Jay
02-16-2011 12:09 PM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
However, let's not lose sight of the main point by chasing tangents: the point is that plant growth is highly flexible, and is not rigidly encoded by the DNA.
So why don't all trees reproduce the same way?
Why do some reproduce by individual seed?
I read the article.
As I understand it the new growth comes from the division of a cell which could only take place by the information contained in the original cells's DNA. That is unless a mutation is required to produce the new growth. But with the group of trees you produced the picture of that would be an auful lot of the exact same mutations taking place.
I do know that some weird things can be done in plants. I have a tree that produces grapefruit, oranges, and tangarines. This is accomplished by grafting limbs from two trees into one trunk.
The limbs can produce the fruit that they would if left on the original trunk.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2011 12:09 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2011 1:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 138 of 187 (604983)
02-16-2011 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 12:09 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
NA is not "self-replicating", the replication complex of DNA involves the action of at least a dozen different proteins and a substantial amount of ddNTP.
Are you saying that the DNA of a cell does not contain the information necessary to construct a cell identical to the original cell?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2011 3:55 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024