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Author
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Topic: Born Again
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 388 (605339)
02-18-2011 4:49 PM
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Origins of an Idea
This notion of being 'born again' as an essential part of becoming a Christian seems widespread throughout the religion. However, I was looking for some sort of textual basis behind the concept and came up empty-handed. I couldn't find a lick of support anywhere in the New Testamentespecially in the words attributed to Jesusfor the idea that becoming a Christian requires being 'born again'. So, what the heck does it mean to be 'born again', and where did the notion originate that such a thing were the beginning moment of the Christian life? Jon Edited by Jon, : subtitle; edit to fix signature glitch
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 4 of 388 (605359)
02-18-2011 7:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Dogmafood
02-18-2011 6:46 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
Okay. Can you explain how that supports the notion of 'born again'? A bare quotation doesn't help me too much. Thanks, Jon
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Dogmafood, posted 02-18-2011 6:46 PM | | Dogmafood has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 7 of 388 (605416)
02-19-2011 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
02-18-2011 9:31 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
When you corroborate those and other related scriptures, being born from above entails the following:
But, then, is it really being born 'from above' at all? Jesus mentions a lot of these entailments throughout the Gospel of John as directives to his followers. But he never says anything about them being born 'from above', or 'born again'. Is the term just a misnomer? Jon
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 02-18-2011 9:31 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 1:19 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 9 of 388 (605421)
02-19-2011 1:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 1:19 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
Say what? John 3:5 is quoting Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above of God's spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit, in order to see God's kingdom. If he didn't mean what he said, what do you think he meant? There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. In fact, most of what he says to Nicodemus is just gibberish. There are no special instructions to help Nicodemus understand what it means to be born 'from above', and Nicodemus' repeated bouts of confusion testify to that fact. How are you so certain what the passage means without any further context? Even Jesus' discourse partner is baffled, with a confusion Jesus never bothers to clear up. Jon
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 1:19 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 388 (605435)
02-19-2011 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
02-19-2011 2:59 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
When I read what Jesus says to Nicodemus, of the parts that actually make sense, it seems like Jesus is just cryptically talking about some sort of spiritual baptism at first, and then about believing in God's son afterward when Nicodemus asks for clarification. I am not sure, though, what that all means, or how it relates to 'born again'. Jon
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by ringo, posted 02-19-2011 2:59 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 388 (605436)
02-19-2011 4:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by jar
02-19-2011 4:05 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
... the concept of being Born Again was seen as continuing and ongoing task throughout out life in the Old Testament. And I don't see how Jesus' lesson to Nicodemus is meant to describe some sort of one-time, instant replacement for that ongoing process that can be accomplished with a few dances and a profession of belief. Unless I'm missing something...
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:05 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:57 PM | | Jon has seen this message but not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 18 of 388 (611620)
04-09-2011 12:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-09-2011 11:12 AM
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
I honestly don't deserve to be a Christian, based on the expectations of such a person. Unlike the widow and her two mites, I am not at all eager to give all that I have away to the poor. I don't believe that I would be cared for in the manner with which I grew up. I don't want to become poor myself. I am, in a word, selfish. Some would suggest that I am coming close to an unpardonable sin. I just want to be left alone. Don't ask me why I don't want to sacrifice for others. I couldn't tell you. What does this have to do with being born again? You say that you might be 'coming close to an unpardonable sin'. How might this relate to the act of repentance for past sins that jar mentioned in Message 15? Jon
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 11:12 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:46 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 23 of 388 (611640)
04-09-2011 5:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
04-09-2011 4:46 PM
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Others believe that in order to repent, one must own up to their mistakes, sins, and attitudes and actively seek to change them. This seems like the most meaningful interpretation to me. Believing that your repentance comes from God is simply passing off responsibility, and is a clear sign of non-repentance.
(That's my story and I'm sticking to it.) This attitude is entirely against the spirit of repentance; the notion that you prefer the current path and have no desire to change is in direct conflict with the act of repentance. No matter how hard it is to repent, you first have to want to repent.
Sure, I see the homeless everyday. There is a group of them that hangs out front of my store. Some say they are alcoholics, drug addicted thieves. I certainly can find better use of my spare change than to shower them with it. quote:
Luke 16:19—31 (NRSV): 'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us." He said, "Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house for I have five brothersthat he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment." Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them." He said, "No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."'
Jon
Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 12:30 PM | | Jon has replied | | | Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 12:30 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 68 of 388 (611971)
04-12-2011 1:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
04-12-2011 12:30 PM
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Re: Wanting To Repent
And what if one has problems wanting to repent? I don't think you'll find the answer to that question on the Internet.
I refuse, however, to help an alcoholic get a beer. Why?
Or a homeless man who has been caught stealing in my store. Why?
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 12:30 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 1:16 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 70 of 388 (611976)
04-12-2011 1:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
04-12-2011 1:16 PM
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Re: Wanting To Repent
Instead, Dad would offer to buy them a meal. When was the last time you did this?
If the US simply helps a new dictator come to power in order to oust an old one, are we not casting pearls before swine? Nowhere does Jesus tell folk to overthrow dictators to put new ones in power.
Think before you give. Was that the charge given? Jon
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 1:16 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 93 of 388 (614110)
05-02-2011 12:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 91 by jaywill
05-01-2011 10:57 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
I can't prove that. But neither can you prove that Nicodemus had not heard about the new birth before. And if he had, it makes sense that Jesus marvels that he is a teacher of Israel and has no revelatory understanding of such things. What kind of a legitimate teacher teaches from 'revelatory understanding'?
Just because we first read about "born again" in John 3 does not prove it was the first time that Jesus had so spoken such a word. You do not know that Jesus had not previously taught such, and Nicodemus came by night for clarification. It is possible that Jesus got right to the point and repeated exactly what He knew Nicodemus had a problem with. Except that Jesus doesn't say: 'hey, you were listening to me just earlier today; did you forget already?'. Instead, he mentions Nicodemus' training as a teacher of Israel (= training in the Scriptures), supporting the notion that Jesus, at the least, thought the message he was giving to Nicodemus was one already present in the Scriptures; a message that anyone who studied the Scriptures should already know. Jon
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by jaywill, posted 05-01-2011 10:57 PM | | jaywill has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 216 of 388 (614682)
05-05-2011 9:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 215 by GDR
05-05-2011 8:04 PM
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Born Again and Life Changes
Thank you, GDR, for your informative take on the matter! I do have a couple of questions for clarity, though, if you don't mind: What kind of life changes do you feel are a part of being 'born again'? Do you believe these changes to be a one-time deal, or are they ongoing? Does being 'born again' require continuous work, or can it be accomplished in a single afternoon of prayers, chanting, and falling over? Jon Edited by Jon, : clarity
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by GDR, posted 05-05-2011 8:04 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 217 by GDR, posted 05-06-2011 1:00 AM | | Jon has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 227 of 388 (614730)
05-06-2011 9:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 224 by Buzsaw
05-06-2011 9:25 AM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
You've never addressed the passages colored in gold. Until you do that, the OT doctrine of original sin stands. Except that you've never offered any evidence for an 'OT doctrine of original sin', so there is no need to bother discrediting a notion that is already without any credit. There's little reason to disprove your thesis when you've never bothered to prove it in the first place. Jon
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2011 9:25 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 233 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2011 12:47 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 242 of 388 (614813)
05-06-2011 5:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 233 by Buzsaw
05-06-2011 12:47 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
According to the apostle Paul, the original sin of the original man, Adam, caused the curse of death on all of Adam's offspring, i.e. original sin/death. Are you denying Paul's allegation? You claimed that 'original sin' was an 'OT doctrine'. None of Paul's writings are part of the OT, and so are irrelevant to the claim of 'original sin' being an 'OT doctrine'which, by the way, is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 233 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2011 12:47 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 332 of 388 (615594)
05-14-2011 1:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 324 by jaywill
05-14-2011 12:32 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
Without quotation let me explain. There is no need to avoid quoting. In fact, offering some sort of Biblical support for your position would be very productive.
God, from the resurrection of Jesus, can come and make an abode with us. That is to compound His life with our life. That is to mingle His life with our life. The process Jesus mentions to Nicodemus is an active one: something we do. How is God 'making an abode with us', 'compounding His life with our life', or 'mingling His life with our life' active processes? How is what God does something we do?
The beginning of this relationship is discribed in the New Testament as a second birth. The only time Jesus makes any mention of 'born again' is in John 3, where it has nothing to do with God 'indwelling our being'whatever that even means. In fact, what Jesus describes to Nicodemus are the things we must do; he makes no mention whatsoever of God doing anything as part of the 'born again' process.
Before you lived apart from God. Whether you consider yourself good or bad, it doesn't matter. You were apart from and alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18) The argument has been made that being 'born again' was already an established Jewish concept at the time of Jesus. Since the people mentioned in Ephesians 4:18 are Gentiles, I'm not sure how that passage serves to counter that argument. How does it show that without being 'born again' and 'receiving Christ' one is alienated from the life of God?
Because we can be justified in Christ's redemptive death we can be enlivened by His resurrection. We receive Christ who is receivable, and we, being justified from sins, can be reborn in the very kernel of our spiritual being. The nucleus of man, the innermost part of man's spiritual being become united with God through Christ, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. But what does this have to do with being 'born again'? In John 3, Jesus makes it clear that being 'born again' is something we must do; it is not a passive process. How does 'Christ's redemptive death' involve us doing anything at all? How does anything you've mentioned involve doing anything at all more than sitting around and 'receiving Christ' like we receive the 6 o' clock news from the couch? How is this passive process in line with the active process Jesus mentions to Nicodemus? Jon
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 324 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 12:32 PM | | jaywill has replied |
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