Born Again

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This notion of being 'born again' as an essential part of becoming a Christian seems widespread throughout the religion. However, I was looking for some sort of textual basis behind the concept and came up empty-handed. I couldn't find a lick of support anywhere in the New Testamentespecially in the words attributed to Jesusfor the idea that becoming a Christian requires being 'born again'.

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This belief presupposes that humans are born with Original Sin. Being unable to understand perfection and sinless choices ourselves (due to the supposed corrupt nature) we have no alternative but to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and to allow Him to enter our hearts and take His rightful place on the throne of our conscious decisions, reasoning, and rationality. Thus, every decision that we ever make is filtered through the "mind of Christ" which is based dogmatically on His character in the Gospels and how we believe He would approach any and all challenging problems. Personally, I believe that Jesus was only human while on Earth, but that He may well now represent a mediation between a vast unknowable God and a relatively simple universal animal such as a human is. Others would disagree, saying that God created humans as His crowning achievement...It is wise to question any and all beliefs that we are taught. Born Again-WikipediaOops..Ijust noticed that I provided no textual basis, but the commonly used scriptures can be found in the link above. Edited by Phat, : explanation of bare assertion and speculation

I honestly don't deserve to be a Christian, based on the expectations of such a person. Unlike the widow and her two mites, I am not at all eager to give all that I have away to the poor. I don't believe that I would be cared for in the manner with which I grew up. I don't want to become poor myself. I am, in a word, selfish. Some would suggest that I am coming close to an unpardonable sin. I just want to be left alone. Don't ask me why I don't want to sacrifice for others. I couldn't tell you.

Lets talk source and content....Some believe that the source of the inspiration, or the desire to change or repent comes from God. Others believe that in order to repent, one must own up to their mistakes, sins, and attitudes and actively seek to change them.My problem is that I don't really feel like changing. Sure, I see the homeless everyday. There is a group of them that hangs out front of my store. Some say they are alcoholics, drug addicted thieves. I certainly can find better use of my spare change than to shower them with it. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.) However I feel that I am not having the inner transforming change that being born again involves. I feel no love for many people. I'm not saying that I hate them...I simply feel indifferent.

What am I supposed to say? "Dear God, please forgive me for being selfish and unloving?" Because in all honesty, I dont now feel any love for the least of my brethren. Oh sure, orphans without legs, maybe. But as for the large majority of suffering people, I simply do not have an inner desire to give them anything...beyond the obligatory five or ten bucks at church.My point is that I am a failed attempt at a new birth...a new regeneration. God will probably make me poor and crippled, and let me stand on a lonely sidewalk begging for change from people who only see a fat loser who is unattractive and undeserving of any spare change.I can repent for my sin, but I dont know where to find the inner desire to change and become more generous.

What part does God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit play in all of this?Why did Jesus want us to follow Him? It seems easy for Gods Son to live the life of a homeless teacher. Its a bit like a son of wealthy parents deciding to hitchhike around the country following Phish.The idea that God expects me to be loving and generous and yet gives me no power to do so leaves me asking someone...anyone...for advice. I simply dont feel inspired.

Initially, way back in message 24 I asked jar what part that God,Jesus, and/or the Holy Spirit played in my decision to do more for the least of these (whom I felt no real desire to help.)My problem, as I saw it, was that I didnt feel born again or even very Christian. I felt that my own problems at earning enough money to retire on were as pressing as any charge that I had to help the homeless. Because of the internal conflict as to how I felt, I expressed myself in this forum topic. And so we continue. I had a dream a couple of nights ago, shortly after posting here and reading the early replies. Additionally, I have been stirred up by reading Francis Chans book, Crazy Love. (Yes, jar, I see that he is selling stuff) I imagine that Francis Chan is marketing a product. So be it. It made me feel guilty. Chan had some radical statements within his book.Milton Frieman, on the other hand, had a sound argument that made myself and a hundred million other guilty capitalists feel a lot better about our basic path in life. The question arises, however. Is spirituality and daily economic and social reality compatable? I agree. My sin is a sin of indifference. Chan seems to emphasize that one cannot be a lukewarm christian. Jars "charge" even seems to corroborate what Chan is saying, without even having to bring religious indoctrination into it. See Mike, I dont see concise evidence that there are two distinct sets of people...namely "Lost" and "Found".I used to believe that this was so, but I have received very good advice from what some would consider "lost" people. This also gets us back to the source versus content discussion. Mike, thank you very much for your concern. I do not believe that I am unable to hear Gods direction for my life. I do seem a bit anxious that He wont give me the inspiration or love for others that I seek. I do believe quite strongly that flesh and spirit are at odds with one another. Having an emotional catharsis from God is diametrically opposed to getting laid, for example. I can get ecstatic over a casino win and thank my lucky stars (or Jesus) for the moment, but we really cant expect God to reward a self proclaimed spiritual man with a carnal desire and attempt to "spiritualize" the episode, can we? Lets assume that the hundred million dollar powerball jackpot was a "spiritual gift" just waiting to be delivered to the right person. (keeping in mind that the love of money is the root of all evil! ) If a so-called righteous man prays for such a gift and has all of the right spiritual intentions as to the use for the money, is he any more likely to receive the gift than a crack addict, a New York Bank executive who is already loaded, or a politician in need of funding?Sorry I got off on that track.... Actually, I have, Mike. He wont give me any answers. He is not angry at me for discussing this with mere humans, however. Percys Forum wont get smited anytime soon. I think that honest introspection is a good thing. What would I be letting go of? For me, as a believer, God exists, has never forced me to do anything, and can no more be let go of than letting go of oxygen. (unless one were suicidal, which I'm not.) I believe that God does not expect all true inspiration and rationale to be found exists only in the Holy Bible, however. And that itself sparks a controversial argument! I could accept the mercy. The guilt would go away. For some reason, however, the guilt is supposed to be there. I wont duck away from it so easily. My main problem with this "charge" is that I am unsure what the exact instructions are. Milton Friedman does have some good points, after all. I received a clear epiphany from my dream the other day, however. My inability to care about others stems from my willful ignorance of myself. It could be one of the roots of my occasional depression. I am not really worried about getting into Heaven. I just know I may be embarrassed or even ashamed once I get there. I may have been focusing on the wrong thing. I can agree with this. I sometimes feel, however, that what God tells me is even twisted by myself to conform to whats comfortable for me. Hopefully, this guilt will allow me to progress eventually rather than going in circles. I agree totally, Mike. I need to read my Bible more. I am not afraid of being brainwashed by any man or philosophy. God has given me a sound mind. It is my heart that I am more worried about, though!

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This attitude(my feeling) is entirely against the spirit of repentance; the notion that you prefer the current path and have no desire to change is in direct conflict with the act of repentance.

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No matter how hard it is to repent, you first have to want to repent.

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And what if one has problems wanting to repent? Do we simply wait until the attitude changes? Look, I have no problem giving to worthy causes. Heck, I'll even do it without the tax break...and cheerfully too!I refuse, however, to help an alcoholic get a beer. Or a homeless man who has been caught stealing in my store. Maybe this is why I am so miserable at times, I dunno...seems as if I am getting taxed more, am becoming poorer myself, and yet am expected to help a class of people who already get free food from Uncle Sam.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Double PostEdited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

My father was a homebuilder who worked hard his whole life and who was my role model. He once told me never to give a homeless man money because they may buy beer or liquor with it. Instead, Dad would offer to buy them a meal. Some took him up on it, others didn't.Dad taught me practical generosity. Why contribute to a mans alcohol or drug addiction? This goes for foreign nations as well. If the US simply helps a new dictator come to power in order to oust an old one, are we not casting pearls before swine?Money doesn't come easy, and it should never go easy either. Think before you give. Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

I honestly felt an instantaneous change when I allegedly got born again. The change was utterly blissful, yet scary. I cleaned the house for the first time ever without being told (by anyone or anything outside of my internal will) I felt wiser. I was definitely happier and more at peace. I stopped doing drugs and cussing. And nobody was forcing me to change. Change was coming from within. The Bible made sense for the first time ever, though I will admit that I sought out passages that confirmed what I wanted to feel and believe. The change is ongoing. In some ways, we can equate the change with an ongoing charge, if you so prefer. A charge means nothing to an unconverted man.

And I believe that we all need to endeavor to renew our imputed righteousness on a daily basis. Just who the heck do I think I AM, anyway?

Ive not heard of any clubs that portray Jesus as a fallible human. I will admit that while on earth, He may well have been simply human, but I would expect Him to be as sinless as any human in history can be.Its all in his Fathers genetics.

The only thing that bothers me is this idea that we humans have a charge and a duty to fulfill in life even if God didnt exist except in our collective imagination.Taken to its logical conclusion, a colony of pond scum that tried its very hardest to be altruistic to its fellow scumlings would do nothing more in life than aspire to be a bigger, smarter, and wealthier colony of pond scum.I maintain that relationship with a Creator is a prerequisite for a species that seeks to progress in this universe.

If Jesus were just human while alive, and if God raised Him from the dead, would it change anything?

I think that much of this argument revolves around how someone was raised. For some of us, our parents helped us. Perhaps they spoiled us a bit, but they never allowed us to fail. They kept us on the path and in the game. For others, failure was seen as a blessing. For those, a harsh judgement by a loving God seems fair. For the rest of us, a forgiving God who empowers us to grow seems far more fair.