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Member (Idle past 2963 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I know Cairns and others have challenged the Luria & Delbuck experiment, but it this scientist is correct, we may have no proof of random mutations. Please quote him saying so.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
It's interesting that Darwin's theory was random mutation period. Back in the real world, it's interesting that Darwin never used the word "mutation" and that he was way more or a Lamarckist than the evidence now supports. But that's only true, so you may feel free to ignore it.
Face it, the days of random mutation are gone. Mad people are funny. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I was under the impression that Darwin and the "neo-Darwinists" and the current modern theories did not recognize that evolution is sensitive, that cells directed movements of their parts, that the plant cells contains "brains". Yes, well you're under a lot of impressions. The weird thing is that if you spent five seconds thinking about what you're saying, you'd know that you're wrong. You are under the impression "that Darwin [...] did not recognize [...] that the plant cells contains "brains"." And yet the person whom you cite to prove "that the plant cells contains "brains"" is ... Darwin. A man who wrote an entire book called The Power of Movement in Plants. Which you quoted. Now, really, how much time did you spend thinking about the proposition that a book written by Darwin 130 years ago must constitute a challenge to Darwinism?
This all complies with Shapiro papers i.e.sentience in the cells, non random mutations for fitness etc. and the biocommunciative, information schools, that are moving away from the random mutation accidential evolultion hypothesis. Actually, what Darwin wrote "complies with" Darwinism. The clue's in the name. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Those are the issues we may well solve in the future with unbiased scientific research. Those are the issues we may well have solved already with unbiased scientific research. Of course, you can always daydream that tomorrow they'll find Bigfoot ... but a brain in the cell? That's a much smaller volume to search. It's not like they're going to say: "oh, it was there all along, it had fallen behind the endoplasmic reticulum".
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
If you read the postings on this board in reply to the scientific papers I cite, there is a definite desired outcome that the current theory of evolution not be challenged. A challenge to it would be rather fun. But a real challenge should be challenging; it shouldn't be a mixture of facts that have been incorporated into the theory for half a century on the one hand and vacuous rhetoric on the other. Wishful thinking also doesn't cut it. Let us know when you find something that challenges the current theory. Like that awesome brain-organelle or whatever-it-is you hope will turn up at some point. We'll be all ears. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I am torn as to whether there can be random mutations, but not convinced they do not occur. I do not rule out selection, but what I have a problem with is that this whole process of evolution is toatally random, accidential and w/o purpose. Then you'll be happy to know that it isn't. Problem solved.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
If a mutations beneficial and deleterious are directed to a specific locus, and then purifying selection deletes the deleterious mutations, isn't that a process which selects beneficial mutations that were directed to that locus? Yes. You're getting there. It's not that there's a particular tendency for the mutations to be good, it's that those that are good tend to be selected for. (Your nomenclature is, however, wrong: we call it "purifying selection" if the new variant is the inferior one, and is eliminated.)
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Not sure of the accurracy of this, but I take it to mean that all mutations that are not beneficial are destroyed, or not picked, in some way. And if you think that happens by a cellular mechanism, you are wrong; but if you think it happens as a result of natural selection, you are right. When you clarify your statement, I fear it'll turn out that you're trying to be wrong.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
As you know I am not a biologist. I can only infer from what actually happens, ie. the end result. I cannot describe the molecular process. What appears to be happening here is that beneficial, deleterious, and neutral mutations occur in a specific locus. Then somehow only the beneficial mutations are selected.How this selection works is what is important, not what you call it. How can you know the selection is "natural"? and how do you define natural? Is selection random?, if it is random how did it occur that only the beneficial mutations were selected, and if it is non-random then isn't it directed in some way? Let me give you a simple example of natural selection. Suppose an individual is born with a mutation that renders it completely sterile. Then (by definition of sterile) that individual will have no children. So the gene will never spread through the gene pool of that species. When that one individual dies, then the gene pool says goodbye to the bad mutation. This is an example of "negative" or "purifying" natural selection. How do I know it's "natural"? Because what could be more natural than that a sterile individual should have no offspring? It would be a miracle if it did. Is it "random"? No, it's a stone-cold certainty. Is it "directed"? Again, no. There's no need for an intelligent process to step in and assess the situation and say to itself: "Hmm, this is a bad gene, I'd better make sure that it doesn't get reproduced." The badness of the gene itself ensures that it won't get reproduced. This is what we call "natural selection". As I say, this is a simple case. It's simple because it involves a gene for complete sterility. Once you've got your head round this, we can go on and look at more complicated cases if you like. But this example gives you the basic idea.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of selection and beneficial mutations. The only way to determine what mutations are beneficial is as a result of studying their success. So the fact that a mutation has been positively selected is what tells us it is a beneficial mutation. I think you're exaggerating. It is true that it would be hard to say a priori what effect a given change to the genotype would have on fitness, but only because it is presently very hard to figure out what effect it would have on the phenotype. However, it is often very easy to figure out the likely effect on fitness of a mutation considered as a phenotypic variation. So for example we do know a priori that a mutation conferring resistance to an antibiotic will (other things being equal) be advantageous to bacteria exposed to that antibiotic. It is true that we cannot presently parlay that knowledge into being able to say: "And so it would be beneficial for this base just here to change from A to C"; that would be more difficult.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I think we are on different wave lengths. I understand Shapiro as stating macro and micro evolution are 2 differenct entities and that maco is driven by directed mutations. And if he ever finds a scrap of a shred of a scintilla of evidence for this, his opinion will suddenly become interesting.
Clearly the above cilted writings of experts in the field are saying that there is more to evolution than random mutation and natural selection. Which, by a complete non-coincidence, is exactly what the theory of evolution says.
When you look at the research in these discplines: EvolvabilityEpigenesis Phenotypic plasticity evolutionary development (evo-devo) reticulat evolution endosymbiiosis and symbiogenesis horizoontal gene tansfer You have to at least acknowledge that the current theory of evolution is not complete ... Why? Things that we know about are part of the current theory. Are you seriously trying to pretend that horizontal gene transfer isn't part of the theory of evolution? Or endosymbiosis? You might as well pretend that recombination isn't either. To know that the current theory was incomplete we would have to know that there is an evolutionary mechanism that we don't yet know about. Well, of course we can't know that; but there may be. And when it is discovered and shown to exist it will de facto be part of the theory.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
the more modifications and corrections to the MS the more I see that the scientists are acknowledging evolution is information driven, not random. You cannot actually see more of something without seeing it at all. You can of course daydream about seeing something without seeing it. That would be different, though.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Hey there. You know that HGT in prokaryotes and epigenetic inheritance should just about have confounded current genomic modelling into a meltdown, I would think. You would think wrong, since obviously HGT is part of "current genomic modeling" --- which is how you know about it. Epigenetics is also part of current biological thinking, which is, again, the reason that you've heard of it. As molbiogirl pointed out, a quick search turns up thirty-nine thousand papers on epigenetics and evolution. And yet somehow now creationists hope that if they shout "epigenetics!" loud enough it'll "confound" biologists "into a meltdown"? Like shadow, you seem to be under the curious impression that well-established pillars of current scientific thought are somehow in conflict with current scientific thought. How could this be the case?
I think Mendellian population genetics has been confounded by Lamarkian style inheritance in epigenetic inheritance and Darwin has been outdated as too simplistic. Boy, that was confused. * Darwinian and Lamarkian are two styles of evolution, not inheritance.* Mendelian genetics and population genetics are two different things. * As Darwin believed in the existence of Lamarkian mechanisms, proof that he is right would not make him "outdated" but a century before his time. I think current thinking about Darwinian evolution requires replacement, maybe a Creationist model would be more parsinomous with current knowledge. Evidence for Darwinian evolution and Lamarkian evolution and evolution by HGT cannot be explained, parsimoniously or otherwise, by a dogma the essence of which is to deny evolution. You seem to be making the same strange mistake as shadow. The fact that modern scientists know more about biology than scientists did in the 1930s is not a crisis in modern biology; it's one of its achievements. It is certainly not a sign that we should scrap all the knowledge carefully accumulated over the last couple of centuries and return to the superstitions of the Dark Ages. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I have also included some evolutionist PRATTs that demonstrate the sorry state of TOE and its constant need for rescussitation from a zombie state by more and more convoluted theories to explain what was not predicted by current researchers, let alone Darwin. Translated from creationist into reality, evolutionary biologists have made many interesting discoveries and have effortlessly incorporated them into the fabric of evolutionary biology. In opposite world, this makes it inferior to creationism, since creationists have made no discoveries and are unable to incorporate any aspect of reality into their dogma.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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The bits of that that even meant anything weren't actually true. With the exception of the bit where you admit that scientific progress will continue to take place without any assistance from creationists.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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