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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2963 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 406 of 760 (612940)
04-20-2011 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by molbiogirl
04-19-2011 4:03 PM


Re: Ho? Really??? HO?
molbiogirl writes:
And to top it off, you "cite" an opinion piece she wrote for an interest group she founded!
Get real.
Seems your a little mixed up or you answer before you know the facts.
Mae-wan Ho, presented this paper, which is a review of the many papers she published with P.T. Saunders on epigenetics,
At a conference in re the future of evolution in Belgrade in 2009
Below are the presenters at the conference.
Are they all woo's?
Abstracts
Name Abstracts
Prof. Gnther Altner Evolution and Creation
Prof. Francisco J. Ayala On the Origins of Modern Science:
Copernicus and Darwin
Prof. David Cooper Evolution, Environment, and Beauty
Prof. Deniel Dennett Darwin’s "Strange Inversion of Reasoning"
Prof. Eve-Marie Engels Charles Darwin's Conception of Morality and
Today's Evolutionary Ethics
Prof. Mikhail N. Epstein
Genocentrism of R. Dawkins and the Personalist
Argument for the Existence of God
Prof. Hille Haker The Responsible Self - Questions after Darwin
Prof. John Harris Evolution: the Enhancement Phase
Dr. Mae Wan Ho
Development and Evolution Revisited
Prof. Otfried Hoeffe Homo sapiens: An animal morabile
Prof. Felix T. Hong Cognitive Darwinism: Deciphering the Enigma of
Human Creativity
Dr. Philippe Huneman Investigating Current Cooperation Studies in
Evolutionary Theory: Philosophy of Science and
the Prospects for a Unified Biological
Understanding of Human Altruism
Prof. Eva Jablonka Soft Inheritance in the 21st Century
Prof. Gorazd Kocijancic Time and Hypostasis- On Evolution as a
"Transcendental Illusion"
Prof. Nikolaus Knoepffler Enhancement — and Escalation Model for an
Ethical Evaluation
Prof. Radoje Lausevic Climate Change, Altruistic Behavior and Morality
Prof. Michael Leslie DNA and the Evolution of Motifs in Beethoven’s
Greatest Piano Work The Hammerklavier Sonata"
Prof. Dietmar Mieth The Evolution and the Question of God and Moral.
The Example of the Discussion about Richard
Dawkins
page 2 >>
Abstracts
Name Abstracts
Dr. Jurgen Neffe Darwin
Prof. Hilary Rose Celebrating Darwin’s Birthday — a Problematic
Inheritance?
Prof. Steven P. Rose From Dobzhansky’s Dictum to Developmental
Systems Theory
Prof. Peter Saunders What can Development tell us about Evolution?
Prof. Neven Sesardic Heredity, Environment and Equality
Dr. Stefan Lorenz Sorgner Evolution, Education, and Genetic Enhancement
Dr. Predrag Sustar What is Natural Selection? A Tip from Cancer
Research
Prof. Emer. Armin Tenner Future and Energy
Prof. Peter Weish Evolution and Ethics
Prof. Ernst Ulrich von Weizsacker Darwinism Comprehended as a Permission To Be
"weak"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by molbiogirl, posted 04-19-2011 4:03 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by molbiogirl, posted 04-20-2011 12:17 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 409 by molbiogirl, posted 04-20-2011 12:30 PM shadow71 has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 407 of 760 (612943)
04-20-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by shadow71
04-20-2011 12:14 PM


For the fourth time, answer the question.
I am discussing Ho.
Ho is a nutbag.
Provide evidence of directed evolution in higher organisms.
Or admit defeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by shadow71, posted 04-20-2011 12:14 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by shadow71, posted 04-20-2011 12:26 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 458 by shadow71, posted 04-26-2011 11:28 AM molbiogirl has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2963 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 408 of 760 (612946)
04-20-2011 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by molbiogirl
04-20-2011 12:17 PM


Re: For the fourth time, answer the question.
molbiogirl writes:
I am discussing Ho.
Ho is a nutbag.
Provide evidence of directed evolution in higher organisms.
Or admit defeat.
I am reading the paper and her prior papers and will post later on them.
You should read her papers and then let me know if she is a "nutbag."
It's not about winning or losing, but looking at new ideas in evolution, and possibly acdepting new ideas.
If anyone is interested in the Belgrade Conference in 2009 you can find it here,
http://www.evolution.konras.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by molbiogirl, posted 04-20-2011 12:17 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by molbiogirl, posted 04-20-2011 12:38 PM shadow71 has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 409 of 760 (612947)
04-20-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by shadow71
04-20-2011 12:14 PM


Ho pubmed search
Mae-wan Ho, presented this paper, which is a review of the many papers she published with P.T. Saunders on epigenetics
Here's a pubmed search of Mae-wan Ho.
Care to show me the "many" papers on epigenetics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by shadow71, posted 04-20-2011 12:14 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by shadow71, posted 04-25-2011 4:40 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 410 of 760 (612951)
04-20-2011 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by shadow71
04-20-2011 12:26 PM


Re: For the fourth time, answer the question.
I am reading the paper and her prior papers and will post later on them.
Papers published in the research literature I hope.
I provided a pubmed search in my prior post in case you need a little help finding them.
You should read her papers and then let me know if she is a "nutbag."
I read plenty of this woman's addled rambling yesterday.
Here's a taste:
Highly polarized multiple layers of liquid crystalline water molecules form dynamically coherent units with the macromolecules, enabling them to function as quantum molecular energy machines that transform and transfer energy with close to 100 percent efficiency.
The quantum coherent organism is a macroscopic quantum being with an ever-evolving wave function spread throughout the entire universe, entangling the wave functions of other quantum beings.
Ooooooooo!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by shadow71, posted 04-20-2011 12:26 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2011 1:52 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 429 by shadow71, posted 04-22-2011 3:17 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 459 by shadow71, posted 04-26-2011 11:33 AM molbiogirl has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 411 of 760 (612956)
04-20-2011 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by molbiogirl
04-20-2011 12:38 PM


Re: For the fourth time, answer the question.
Highly polarized multiple layers of liquid crystalline water molecules form dynamically coherent units with the macromolecules, enabling them to function as quantum molecular energy machines that transform and transfer energy with close to 100 percent efficiency.
I quit smoking that stuff before I even got accepted to grad school. A long time ago......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by molbiogirl, posted 04-20-2011 12:38 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by molbiogirl, posted 04-20-2011 2:54 PM Coragyps has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 412 of 760 (612958)
04-20-2011 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by shadow71
04-19-2011 7:21 PM


Purifying Selection defined.
shadow71 writes:
I would suggest you e-mail Shapiro and ask him what you want. He was very prompt in answering my e-mail and molbiogirls e-mails. He, I am sure, would answer any questions you have.
I suppose I could do that, but I'm not sure I need to yet.
"Purifying selection" is not some random term that Shapiro coined. The term has a standard meaning. You can look it up on Wikipedia or find it defined in scientist papers.
From
Widespread purifying selection at polymorphic sites in human protein-coding loci, Austin L. Hughes et alia.
Widespread purifying selection at polymorphic sites in human protein-coding loci - PMC
quote:
One feature that can be indicative of the deleterious consequences of a given allele is evidence of purifying selection (13). Purifying selection is the form of natural selection that acts to eliminate selectively deleterious mutations.
From Wikipedia
Negative selection - Wikipedia(natural_selection)
quote:
In natural selection, negative selection[1] or purifying selection is the selective removal of alleles that are deleterious. This can result in stabilizing selection through the purging of deleterious variations that arise.
Purging of deleterious alleles can be achieved on the population genetics level, with as little as a single point mutation being the unit of selection. In such a case, carriers of the harmful point mutation have fewer offspring each generation, reducing the frequency of the mutation in the gene pool.
Wouldn't Shapiro have defined "purifying selection" if he was not using the term in its ordinary sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by shadow71, posted 04-19-2011 7:21 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by shadow71, posted 04-22-2011 7:38 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 413 of 760 (612961)
04-20-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Coragyps
04-20-2011 1:52 PM


Ho woo
We're talking Rupert Sheldrake levels of delusion here. Morphogenic fields, biophotons, etc.
Take a look at the talk she gave for the Radionic Association.
Just a taste.
The putative memory of the water invoked for homeopathic activity, in the form of specific electromagnetic signals, can be clearly and independently detected.
A science of homeopathy has the potential to revolutionize biology and put all forms of energy medicine, including radionics on the map.
What's "radionics"? So glad you asked.
Radionics is a healing technique in which our natural intuitive faculties are used both to discover the energetic disturbances underlying illness and to encourage the return of a normal energetic field that supports health.
The woo is strong with this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2011 1:52 PM Coragyps has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2963 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 414 of 760 (612979)
04-20-2011 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by molbiogirl
04-19-2011 7:37 PM


Re: Ho & epigenetics
molbiogirl writes:
How about discussing the paper and not her wackadoo crap from ISIS?
Ho writes:
In a brilliant critique of the genetic determinist approach to behaviour, Gottlieb (1998) also deconstructed the idea that genes determine body pattern by pointing to the very different expression patterns of the same Hox genes in the fruitfly, the centipede, and the Onychophora. Hox (homeotic) genes are supposed to control segmental patterning during development; instead, the same genes appear to be simply responding to different patterning processes in the different animals. There is decidedly no homology of genes corresponding to homology of biological structures.
This same theme emerged in a comprehensive review of segmentation in arthropods by Peel, Chipman and Akam (2005), which showed that different groups have distinct modes of segmentation and divergent genetic mechanisms.
One important motivation for focussing on development for evolutionary change is that developmental changes are far from random or arbitrary (Ho and Saunders, 1979, 1982, 1984; Webster and Goodwin, 1982); but are determined by dynamical structures, independently of the action of specific genes.
Does she make any sense here or is this just woo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by molbiogirl, posted 04-19-2011 7:37 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Wounded King, posted 04-21-2011 4:29 AM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 416 by molbiogirl, posted 04-21-2011 10:22 AM shadow71 has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 415 of 760 (613011)
04-21-2011 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by shadow71
04-20-2011 7:23 PM


Re: Ho & epigenetics
Does she make any sense here or is this just woo?
No, claiming that "There is decidedly no homology of genes corresponding to homology of biological structures." means instead that she is talking nonsense.
There is certainly no universal expectation of conservation of function, it is easily shown that developmental pathways can be modified to different endpoints and triggers. However there is a wealth of data showing substantially conserved homologies of function and genetic networks across species and indeed across phyla.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by shadow71, posted 04-20-2011 7:23 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 416 of 760 (613034)
04-21-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by shadow71
04-20-2011 7:23 PM


Put up or shut up
Are you going to cite a PAPER published in the RESEARCH LITERATURE or not?
Either cite a PAPER or withdraw your claim of directed mutation in higher organisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by shadow71, posted 04-20-2011 7:23 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by shadow71, posted 04-21-2011 12:48 PM molbiogirl has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2963 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 417 of 760 (613060)
04-21-2011 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by molbiogirl
04-21-2011 10:22 AM


Re: Put up or shut up
Stress-induced variation in evolution: from behavioural plasticity to genetic assimilation
Alexander V Badyaev*
+ Author Affiliations
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0088, USA
. (abadyaev@email.arizona.edu)
Abstract
Extreme environments are closely associated with phenotypic evolution, yet the mechanisms behind this relationship are poorly understood. Several themes and approaches in recent studies significantly further our understanding of the importance that stress-induced variation plays in evolution. First, stressful environments modify (and often reduce) the integration of neuroendocrinological, morphological and behavioural regulatory systems. Second, such reduced integration and subsequent accommodation of stress-induced variation by developmental systems enables organismal ‘memory’ of a stressful event as well as phenotypic and genetic assimilation of the response to a stressor. Third, in complex functional systems, a stress-induced increase in phenotypic and genetic variance is often directional, channelled by existing ontogenetic pathways. This accounts for similarity among individuals in stress-induced changes and thus significantly facilitates the rate of adaptive evolution. Fourth, accumulation of phenotypically neutral genetic variation might be a common property of locally adapted and complex organismal systems, and extreme environments facilitate the phenotypic expression of this variance. Finally, stress-induced effects and stress-resistance strategies often persist for several generations through maternal, ecological and cultural inheritance. These transgenerational effects, along with both the complexity of developmental systems and stressor recurrence, might facilitate genetic assimilation of stress-induced effects. Accumulation of phenotypically neutral genetic variance by developmental systems and phenotypic accommodation of stress-induced effects, together with the inheritance of stress-induced modifications, ensure the evolutionary persistence of stress—response strategies and provide a link between individual adaptability and evolutionary adaptation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by molbiogirl, posted 04-21-2011 10:22 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by molbiogirl, posted 04-21-2011 1:01 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 419 by NoNukes, posted 04-21-2011 1:37 PM shadow71 has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 418 of 760 (613062)
04-21-2011 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by shadow71
04-21-2011 12:48 PM


Badyaev
And where does Badyaev discuss directed mutation? Directed evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by shadow71, posted 04-21-2011 12:48 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by shadow71, posted 04-22-2011 7:53 PM molbiogirl has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 419 of 760 (613067)
04-21-2011 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by shadow71
04-21-2011 12:48 PM


Re: Put up or shut up
Shadow71,
Can you indicate, in your own words, how this paper supports your argument? I could make some guesses about the Ho paper, but this Badyaev paper covers a lot of ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by shadow71, posted 04-21-2011 12:48 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by molbiogirl, posted 04-21-2011 1:43 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 453 by shadow71, posted 04-25-2011 5:13 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 420 of 760 (613071)
04-21-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by NoNukes
04-21-2011 1:37 PM


Re: Put up or shut up
I could make some guesses about the Ho paper...
Just a quick note, NN.
That is a talk Ho gave, not a paper.
Shadow has yet to quote Ho's published work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by NoNukes, posted 04-21-2011 1:37 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

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