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Author | Topic: Einstein is rolling over in His Grave, or Cern makes a big mistake | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Who bets the results can not be duplicated??
http://news.yahoo.com/...r-physics-challenged-194937846.html
quote: Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Who bets the results can not be duplicated? Probably not, but I still wouldn't say that "Cern makes a big mistake". The caution shown and requests for duplication are exactly what we want to see in such circumstances. The big problem is that such superluminal neutrino speeds have not been seen over vastly greater distances - primarily with supernova explosions. A 60ns difference compared to light over the observed distance works out to be a ~2 year difference compared to light with supernova SN1987A. This is something completely at odds with observation where the initial neutrino burst arrived 3 hours before the light (owing to the mean free path through the star for the shock wave being much longer for the neutrino component compared to the photon component)
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Either this is a very biased article, or the interviewed physicists are being extremely polite. The odds of finding new phenomena aren't bad, happens all the time in physics, but of overturning Einsteinian physics? Not very likely, in my opinion.
CERN's reputation for quality research is well deserved, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the results were replicated, but I'm expecting an eventual explanation consistent with Einstein. This has the same feel as that discovery a decade or so ago of light packets that could arrive before they departed. Also, given that Fermilab is scheduled to discontinue operation at the end of this year, they might not have sufficient time to do the necessary setup work to their neutrino facility, and experimenters currently on the schedule through the year's end will fight hard to maintain their place. --Percy
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2162 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Correction: only the Tevatron at Fermilab is scheduled to shut down. The lab plans to continue doing neutrino physics and to pursue new high-energy physics projects on the "intensity frontier" rather than the "energy frontier" (which the US has ceded to CERN).
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi cavediver,
Probably not, ... ... but a possibility.
... but I still wouldn't say that "Cern makes a big mistake". ... It's not a major con-Cern, but I agree that the caution and the request for independent verification is the proper course to take. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
the initial neutrino burst arrived 3 hours before the light (owing to the mean free path through the star for the shock wave being much longer for the neutrino component compared to the photon component)
Do you mean that the path is shorter for the neutrino's?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Do you mean that the path is shorter for the neutrino's? Sort of; it's a little-known fact that photons don't just shoot straight out of the center of a star; it has to random-walk out as it is absorbed and re-emitted by the stellar gas. That's a function of the mean free path of a photon in a star. It's calculated that it can take a photon emitted in the center of the Sun as long as 170,000 years to reach the corona and be emitted into space. Neutrinos only weakly interact with matter so they shoot directly out. The "mean free path" refers to the average distance a particle can travel within a medium before it interacts with another particle. For a photon, which will interact with anything, that's a very short distance. For a neutrino which interacts with almost nothing, that's a very long distance indeed.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Do you mean that the path is shorter for the neutrino's? Yes - see Crash's explanation above.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
So when Han Solo did the the Kessel Run in under twelve parsecs (it should take about 18), the Falcon was taking a shorter mean free path?
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong. Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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So when Han Solo did the the Kessel Run in under twelve parsecs (it should take about 18), the Falcon was taking a shorter mean free path? A parsec is a unit of distance, not time. Solo was not referring directly to his ship's speed when he made this claim. Instead, he was referring to the shorter route he was able to travel by skirting the nearby Maw black hole cluster, thus making the run in under the standard distance. By moving closer to the black holes, Solo managed to cut the distance down to about 11.5 parsecs. Or so his story goes.
source
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1534 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined:
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I think it is proof of our impending doom, 2012 the end of the world. As we approach 2012 the laws that bind the universe will begin to fail, strange results will happen to all kinds of physics experiments more and more as the end approaches. Gravity will weaken, the sun will expand swallowing the inner planets if they haven't floated off into deep space. Eventually the forces that hold atoms and subatomic whatchamacallits together will fade away, and all matter will just poof out of existence.
Fermi said they were going to try and replicate the the results to within one nanosecond of accuracy within the next 6 months. Exciting times in the world of particle physics with the Higgs and now this. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CERN is one of the best physics groups in the world. Their scientific discipline is top shelf. What I find interesting is that after reaching their (tentative) conclusion they held off an announcement for several months to re-check their data, their equipment and their protocols looking for any possible error. They found none.
This does not mean that some kind of error has not been made, but I wouldn't bet the farm on that. These guys do not make those kinds of mistakes without finding them in review. Usually. I must, tentatively, assume the phenomenon they reported is real. A repeat by OPERA and duplication by FermiLab and/or KEK/Tsukuba would not be a major surprise. But Relativity will not be overthrown. All the hype on the internet and in the media about the end of Relativity is ignorance in play and those familiar enough with Relativity know very well why. Resolving the conflict here is going to very interesting.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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xkcd: Neutrinos
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I guess this makes xkcd a pseudoskeptic then? After all, not only does he make negative hypothesis without providing evidence of said negative hypothesis (neutrino FTL won't pan out - when he hasn't tested the speed of neutrinos under CERN conditions to back up said hypothesis) but he believes that that one can even make a profit by wagering on these negative hypotheses
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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